0:00

my left foot was swollen like an elephant foot and I I couldn't understand why it was later diagnosed as

0:06

a psychosomatic illness so basically because for 3 years I hadn't expressed my feelings I had pushed it all inside

0:13

me it was the body's way to basically Express itself and uh with that you know

0:19

I couldn't hide anymore because I couldn't put on a shoe uh and that's the time when you know I was just getting

0:26

remarried then my second wife and I decided at that time then you know I

0:32

have to say something

0:42

here hello my name is Will Spencer and welcome to the will Spencer podcast this

0:47

is a weekly Show featuring in-depth conversations with authors leaders and influencers who help us understand our

0:53

changing World new episodes release every Friday my guest this week is Nick Johnson an executive coach and the

1:00

author of the outstanding book executive loneliness the five pathways to overcoming isolation stress anxiety and

1:07

depression in the modern business world when I was offered the opportunity to interview Nick I jumped at it without

1:13

knowing anything beyond what you've just heard because from my work with men I know an uncomfortable truth sometimes

1:20

the most successful hardest working and most highly acclaimed professionals are the most lonely empty and depressed of

1:29

course we tend to to look at the All-Star athlete the glitzy actor the rockar the high-powered executive or the

1:35

accomplished Faith leader and think man that guy Must Have It All We imagine these men crushing it in public then

1:42

sleeping sweetly with no conflict in their homes or inner lives but sadly in

1:47

my experience that isn't the case in fact it's often the opposite those who

1:53

perform at the highest levels often find that it's lonely at the top and just as lonely on the climb far from having the

2:00

certainty they project professionally they're racked with guilt fear insecurity and anxiety that their human

2:07

failings will soon be discovered this leads to all sorts of coping behaviors drug and alcohol addiction infidelity

2:14

outbursts of anger gambling spending spree and more all are attempts to medicate the Inner Fear that comes from

2:20

pushing far beyond one's capabilities while chasing material fulfillment and status I saw it repeatedly in men's

2:27

inner work wealthy professionals driving at Retreats with gold watches shiny polo

2:32

shirts and shinier sports cars only to have these Stripped Away to become just

2:37

another man in the crowd and that's when the truth emerged and it was profound and humbling to witness just how

2:44

superficial success can be the depression I've seen in these men isn't uncommon men faltering repeatedly in

2:50

their careers marriages and families isn't uncommon either I've sat beside more than one man for whom a men's

2:57

retreat was a result of his friends inter intervention or his last shot before yet another marriage ended but

3:04

you know what is uncommon a man making it all the way back not just returning

3:09

to where he was but growing Beyond himself into the man he always could be

3:15

someone who breaks something through Pride or fear but then learns to rebuild with genuine integrity and that's the

3:21

story you're about to hear from Nick Johnson I'll let him tell it because it's better from his mouth than mine but

3:27

Nick climbed to success felt to his lowest point and found the strength to rebuild correctly he worked through a

3:34

failed marriage an a strange son alcoholism depression job loss and more

3:39

to become an example of what men can achieve with an ounce of moral courage and a pound of conviction followed by a

3:46

yearslong commitment to making things right I've met very few men who have completed this journey of restoration

3:53

and we desperately need more of them so while I initially wanted to talk with Nick about professional struggles with

3:58

loneliness through our conversation and his book I was thrilled to find there's so much more to the story now I should

4:05

mention that Nick is not a Christian and this is a Christian podcast which creates a unique opportunity to speak to

4:11

two audiences today first for those listeners who follow Nick but aren't Believers I want to highlight the

4:16

extraordinary effort he invested in becoming a moral man it wasn't enough to be successful with a full bank account

4:24

and travel schedule you'll hear where that path led him then notice where courageously following a higher moral

4:30

law took him instead consider the man he was perhaps someone you can relate to

4:35

then consider the man he's become by walking a road that by his own admission was Guided by something greater than

4:42

himself now for my Christian listeners you'll also recognize familiar themes in Nick's story confession repentance

4:49

restitution and especially Redemption the idea that even the most painful

4:54

events of Our Lives can be turned to the good with faith I'm sure that this is a pattern you can recognize in your story

5:02

I see it in mine now naturally there are always steps further to go but if you ask me this is what it looks like to get

5:09

a running start if this is your first time enjoying the will Spencer podcast welcome if you like what you hear please

5:15

subscribe hit that like button with gusto and leave a comment letting us know what you thought if you're

5:21

listening on Apple or Spotify subscribe there as well and don't forget to leave a five-star review if you'd like to go

5:27

deeper you can subscribe to my substack at the Link in the description or click buy me a coffee in the show notes every

5:33

contribution you make helps keep this independent platform running and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast

5:40

the executive coach speaker Iron Man triathlete and the bestselling author of

5:45

executive loneliness Nick Johnson Nick Johnson author of executive

5:52

loneliness thanks so much for joining me on the will Spencer podcast thank you so much for inviting me

Nick's journey from construction worker to executive

5:57

will uh man you know I uh as we were talking just before we hit record I I really enjoyed your book I read the

6:03

whole thing and uh I'm very impressed with the depth of honesty and sincerity

6:10

and and thoroughness that you wrote this book I think the world of Executives is widely misunderstood and you really

6:16

opened the door to it so thank you so much for that well thank you will it was a big decision to release it as you can

6:23

imagine as you read a book there's a lot of self-disclosure in there uh but once I made a decision there was no turning

6:29

back and I think it's the best decision I ever made in my life that's perfect

6:34

cuz I was actually curious reading it like wow like you you went there like you said the thing and and to put it in

6:41

print and to put it out there and then you know the publicity around it like it was a big step so just as a first

6:47

question like can you take can you take us into that moment where you made that decision like oh wow I'm really going to

6:52

do this yeah I actually checked in with a couple of my friends mentors and my

6:58

second wife with just got married I asked her as well there was of course a few people who said Nick this will be

7:04

career suicide you will never be able to be employed again and what about your medical insurance will someone ever

7:11

insure you after you disclosing these medical conditions you had and then the

7:16

at the other hand some said go for it Nick this book might just save one save one life and that struck a cord with me

7:22

and realizing that you know what is most important that I can have a corporate job or that if I can save a life of

7:29

someone who was going through a difficult time and after that I I decided to press the button and and and

7:35

and I'm I'm happy to say well that it has helped people because we need to have these

7:42

conversations yes amen well thank you thank you for doing that and I think uh it's it's it's uh really interesting to

7:49

hear that you were motivated by the desire to help because I was wondering you know if you ever had the intention

7:56

to be an executive again if you wanted to go back into the corporate world having read the book I didn't really get that sense but you know I think it's

8:03

right that when you say things like this you know people who won't necessarily understand will be like oh I don't you

8:08

know they don't know what to do with it yes absolutely and I wanted to have a conversation and I wanted basically to

8:15

Ring the Alarm bell with a book to highlight that there is a much bigger issue that that we are living in a world

8:21

where people are portraying this political and Polished beautiful face

8:27

that they are perhaps not the authentic self but behind the mask is a completely different

8:32

person and and that I think is I think you're dead on because we we live in this strange era where Executives CEOs

8:40

High powerered CEOs have kind of become celebrities it used to be rock stars and movie stars and athletes and now there's

8:47

probably a handful of celebrity CEOs that people can just rattle off Tim Cook from Apple you know guys like that

8:54

particularly in Tech uh but behind the scenes that's not exactly what it appears

9:00

absolutely and I spent some time over with Tony Shay in in from sapos in 2013

9:06

when I joined his boot camp for three days spending time to look at the culture and while his book was about

9:13

delivering happiness we know what a sad outcome and where that went with his mental health issues and addictions and

9:19

sadly we lost Tony in 2020 so here is someone who is making everyone else

9:25

happy and living the the slogan and looking fantastic on the outside but

9:30

behind the scenes and the wheels are falling off and how often is it like that so so maybe I mean was when you

9:37

came into the high the the world of Executives um did were you shocked to

9:42

discover that I know and we'll get into your own story with all that but do you did you start seeing that and and were you surprised by it when you first like

9:49

entered that world so I mean people are so good at

9:54

acting and holding it all together and I'm calling it a small a smiling depression in my book right that concept

10:01

and I was one of them and most of my leaders bosses over the years were there

10:06

also they were looking professional they were looking strong uh but as I started

10:11

to interview exec Executives uh for the book and I created a safe space where

10:16

people could speak up and I had to First do some self disclosure about myself so

10:22

that they should feel safe to open up as well and that's when I was shocked to see and hear how many actually had

10:28

issues and it started with an anonymous survey where I found that actually 33%

10:34

of the adults were suffering from loneliness and then it was just the last box that they could tick if they wanted

10:41

to have a one-on-one conversation and be interviewed more about it and so many of

10:46

them tick that box so they saw this opportunity then to have a safe space to speak about the challenges something

10:52

which they never had before so I met a lot of Executives during this time who was pouring the heart out after a while

10:59

because I disclosed myself first and I gave them a bit on my story and they felt then safe to open up as well well

11:06

let's let's get into that story and and and I'm particularly curious to how you ended up in Singapore I think it'd be

11:12

surprising that a man from I think you're from Sweden would end up all the way on the other side of the world I I've been to Singapore I spent a couple

11:19

weeks there I think it was in 2017 so I'm familiar with the landscape how did you end up so far from home yeah so in

11:27

1998 I moved cross to Australia to study I joined a university there I was 23

11:34

years of age which is a late start before that I was mainly a construction

11:39

worker in Sweden but suddenly after motorbike accident I decided to change

11:44

the world of work for myself I couldn't really work with my body anymore during uh work with my back and neck and that

11:51

brought me then to Australia where I wanted to study and the first uh of my studies was just to learn English

11:57

actually I couldn't speak much English at the time uh after I completed that course I realized that I was far away from home

12:04

and I thought while I'm here I might as well get a degree and I got two degrees in Australia and then realizing after

12:10

that that I was as far away as I could from my family uh and I decided to go

12:15

halfway and that's uh why about 21 years ago I ended up in Southeast Asia and I

12:21

lived in Vietnam Thailand Singapore Indonesia basically but working in all

12:27

the countries in Southeast Asia was that was there were opportunities available to you there I mean I know that

12:33

Singapore has a pretty thriving downtown business area I was surprised to hear that you were working in hoochi Min City

12:38

in Vietnam I haven't I haven't been there but I guess there's a big business center there also yes so what I did

12:45

during my trips uh uh back and forth between Sweden and Australia at my study

12:51

years was halfway was always to change over the flight and it was Singapore Bangkok Hong Kong and so on and I took

12:58

those opportun unities to stop over and build up some connections and build up a network uh so after when I graduated I

13:06

had quite good Connections in those cities and it was actually Bangkok where I got my first job working for a big

13:12

American advertising company at the time which was my first job so I started in advertising PR marketing running the big

13:20

accounts and so on and then the career has just opened up for me uh later on I worked in medical services in Vietnam

13:26

and Indonesia uh in general man management basically of Hospitals and Clinics and so on for the oil and gas

13:33

companies who are working there and also in the mining industry uh in in the medical services sites then for these

13:40

sites so maybe you can talk a little bit about what the expat business Community

13:45

is like in that world so I imagine you're working for Western companies that are trying to Market themselves to

13:51

to the Asian to the Asian communities yes that's right uh that's

The expat business community in Southeast Asia

13:56

what I done and that's what most of us do perhaps it's an European or American

14:01

company who want to expand to Asia who see it as a big opportunity a future market for growth and then they need

14:08

some Representatives uh to set it up and at least over the last uh sort of uh

14:15

decades you know it's Asians have had to catch up because they weren't there they were still developing it's now reaching

14:22

a stage where the most of the senior jobs are by locals but still if you're

14:27

an American company you probably want to have one of your own one of the people who worked in your company in head

14:32

office to be there to make sure that that there's some some continuity and consistency between the companies so

14:39

there are still experts out there but not so many as it used to be uh they

14:45

bridg the Gap so as of now I'm more running my own sort of consultancy

14:50

coaching training and mentoring business where I'm working with mainly International companies the big firms

14:57

but helping them with trainings and and so on helping them with executive trainings for for executives that may be

15:03

suffering from some of these issues yeah and not it doesn't have to be that it's leadership development but just to

15:11

reinforce the importance of speaking up if there is an issue and making sure

15:16

that they have safe spaces inside the company and outside so psychological safety as you can imagine if I do a a

15:23

training or a Leadership Summit like I done a few recently for 200 staff the message will resonate with quite a few

15:29

of them and maybe of 200 people you can imagine there' be 10 or 20 of them probably who's going through a very

15:36

difficult right time uh right now so it's about giving them the tools and and know how to seek

15:41

help so let's let's paint a picture real quick of what the uh the executive

15:47

lifestyle was because again it's a very insular world it's not very glamorous until you speak at a big conference or

15:53

convention or something like that what what's the sort of what's the lifestyle like of people who work in these jobs

15:59

maybe in some of these expanding markets yeah I mean if you are an expert if you're sent by a foreign company

16:06

typically you will come keeping your salary from your home country and then you have some allowances including

16:11

housing and uh you have your insurances and all the Visas and all the documentations and so on so you have

16:18

people looking after you perhaps even an agency who take care of all your needs to show you the housing or help with

16:24

school and all these kind of things because it it can be quite overwhelming uh if you're not sure where to start um

16:30

even just medical insurance and so on you got to have the right thing um as of

16:36

now being an entrepreneur being my own business owner uh I have to Source all of these things myself so uh the you

16:43

have to be very very mindful of making sure that you take all the boxes and just the to have visas for all these

16:50

countries to be able to travel is not so easy um so I'm spending a lot of time

16:56

with embassies and with getting the right documentation to be able to work in these countries and we have to

17:02

remember there's different legislations in all markets and every country is different and you have to always be up

17:07

to date what's the latest between my own passport and Country and this country there's been multiple times when uh when

17:14

I just before trip realize oh they have changed and then maybe you have to postpone the trip and so on so it's a

17:19

lot of documentation Administration that you need to be aware of when you're working in this part of the world and so

17:26

the I would imagine that the hours are quite grueling and the pressure is is quite intense and competitive in some of

17:32

these environments yeah if you're working as a let's say a regional director being in charge of you know

17:38

let's say 8 to 15 different countries that your uh compan is in perhaps you're

17:43

based in Singapore uh but then you will travel most of the time during the week you will travel to meet with your teams

17:49

in the various countries and typically someone would travel perhaps four days a week and spend one day in the head

17:55

office in Singapore with a team then so you always is on the road and it's not rare to hear that you know executives

18:02

are only home perhaps you know 3 4 days of the month for the rest you on the road with the teams and often on the

18:08

weekends perhaps you need to attend to events in the various markets and team building and trainings and so on with

18:14

your teams there as well on the ground and again it's different languages different legislations laws so you have

18:20

to really get into it to understand you cannot for example expect the the Vietnam to be like India it's like night

18:28

and day and so I would imagine there's a lot of socializing that's involved with that as

18:34

well team building you know after hours at bars or various nice restaurants you

18:39

talk about your own struggle with alcohol in the book particularly and that that seems to me to just to be part of that

18:44

world absolutely and uh uh alcohol was Pro was serving me well in my first

18:50

years you know Business Development socializing and so on and the fact that I did enjoy it that brought me out more

18:57

and it seemed like the more I was out the more I was drinking the more business I got because you were

19:02

entertaining the clients and so on but of course it comes a time when it's not serving you well anymore and it was my

19:08

my health my physical and mental health that was going drain going down the drain uh because when the pressure is on

19:15

and you're not getting enough sleep and adding late nights and alcohol to that eventually you know you're going to

19:20

start burning out and that's what happened to me and that's what happened to so many so let's let's start there then

19:27

let's let's talk about your experiences in Singapore and kind of the time frame leading up to when you had your first

19:32

Awakening around some of these issues yeah so around

Reaching the pinnacle and feeling empty

19:38

2015 I was doing really well in my career I've hit all my targets got a promotion and big big paycheck and uh I

19:46

had perhaps everything I set out to achieve so over 10 11 years I climbed a corporate ladder and I really really was

19:54

achieving everything I could ever dream of uh when I reached that stage I

20:00

started to have self-doubt I questioned myself was this everything I had worked so hard for was it worth these 10 11

20:08

years of sacrifices to work so hard to get this uh and that's when I eventually

20:15

actually I resigned from my job without really knowing and understanding why but it was I just realized this is not where

20:22

I want to be uh that left me very isolated at the time with my feelings

20:28

and thoughts and I started jump from job to job and uh then I started question my relationship as well at home I had a 13

20:35

years marriage and I filed for a divorce we had a son together and my ex-wife

20:41

moved back to Sweden and that made me of course even more isolated and lonely and then I start to move from country to

20:48

Country and I was not really connected to anyone at the time so it was a very lonely place and that went on for about

20:54

3 years until 2018 I was spiraling downwards uh and it was in April

21:00

2018 that I managed to turn it around and that's perhaps when I reached my

21:06

rock button which was the turning point for me so you you had climbed the corporate ladder in Asia hyperco

21:13

competitive lots of travel and when you you reached the the Pinnacle the peak

21:19

where you had wanted to be you discovered that it it wasn't what you thought it was it wasn't as satisfying

21:24

as you expected it would be yeah you could say that you know also looking at University I studied very hard at

21:32

University because I remember the the dean of the business school you know selling this dream of getting

21:37

scholarships getting Awards and so on and he wanted to compete against other universities so it were incentives for

21:43

him and so on and I bought into that I bought into this success and and this

21:49

became my drive my purpose and it became my fuel and my addiction so winning

21:54

became com you know addicted to me I brought that mindset with me into the

22:00

workplace and I didn't question for a second what am I doing what should I do because companies are so good these days

22:07

in giving you targets kpis and it's quite Crystal Clear what you need to achieve to get what and I just did that

22:14

I didn't think for a second you know about anything else I just thought well this is what I should do but I had

22:20

forgotten about myself I did it at the cost of my own well-being and those around me and that's when I felt cheated

22:28

having realized you know I spent 15 years studying and working achieving this without really asking twice if this

22:36

is the right thing to do uh and I realized also that I stepped on a lot of people's toes uh doing that and it came

22:43

at the cost you know of other people eventually I was the one to pay the heavier price and I I had a lot of guilt

22:49

and shame around having taken that path and that that I think was the thing one

22:55

of the many things that was the most striking about your book was was you talked about the moral Dimension

23:01

which I didn't expect I didn't expect some significantly long sections about

23:06

making right the things that you had done wrong to other people and I think a lot of people um would write books about

23:13

overcoming loneliness but would avoid the issue of there are people that you have to go apologize to that you stepped

23:19

on along the way yeah if we have you know been

23:25

aggressive and perhaps we have in our career we have been stepping on other people's Toes that means that we have

23:31

hurt other people and also we have therefore hurt ourselves and in the process of being quite egocentric and

23:38

which it can be that Journey if you're climbing to be a CEO uh then uh

23:44

naturally your family have suffered relatives have suffered friends have suffered and walking around with that

23:50

can be quite painful so indeed it is about making that moral inventory and and setting things right and that's uh

23:57

part of every uh recovery program every 12 step program will have one of the

24:02

steps where you basically are making a list of all the people you have harmed in your entire life it's typically step

24:08

four in every program where you with a sponsor then spend weeks some people spend months uh to making a master list

24:16

of all the people you have harmed and in my case I opened a spreadsheet and I had about 80 people on my list I had know I

24:23

had other people I know of other people had 400 and what I did was basically

24:29

going through photo albums from my from my school years children photo albums

24:35

and just thinking if I had said something wrong to a child uh 30 40 years ago had I bullied someone well and

24:42

then thinking through the whole family all my relatives life even if they're

24:47

alive or dead it didn't matter you still write down if there was an incident and have you said something to your neighbor

24:55

that wasn't right and so on so you just really pinpoint all these things and you're walking around with all this

25:00

baggage of pain um so the first step there is just to get it down on a paper

25:06

before you take action on it so as as you were doing this uh well actually let

Making amends: The moral inventory

25:12

let's let's go to the story that you tell in the book it's it it may seem insignificant but it was clearly meaningful to you a situation with your

25:19

sister and your son yeah so in regards to my sister then

25:24

um we had a lunch one day uh um I was over visiting family in Sweden and at

25:31

that time I wasn't so well I it was just before my fall and I was holding things

25:38

together but I had a lot of tension a lot of stress inside me and what happened then was my son was about 5

25:45

years of age and I was trying to raise him without having too much sugar in his

25:51

life and at this lunch uh when I didn't look my sister gave him a a Coca-Cola

25:57

which was the first Coke in his life and he drank it and as I saw that I I didn't

26:03

have the calmness in me to just say something like he doesn't drink that I'm

26:09

sorry can you have something else I wasn't able to strike that conversation

26:14

because how I was mentally at the time so I basically just pulled him off the table and stormed off without saying a

26:21

word and uh you know that was in front of my whole family and I remember that

26:26

people try to speak about it later I always a conversation completely my sister called and sent messages and I

26:34

didn't respond to anything in fact for about a year I didn't even talk to her it was only at the next sort of family

26:40

gathering a year later on where at least I just said hello and that kind of incident was just hanging there and I

26:47

had many of those with friends previous colleagues and so on as well uh those

26:52

kind of situation there was a lot of unsaid things yeah you just you were you were

26:57

in a place where you're traveling a lot probably not getting a whole ton of sleep not exercising not eating well

27:03

drinking and the stress has just turned up and you're at this time were you kind of watching Things Fall Apart a little

27:09

bit had you experienced some of the this is not what I thought it was kind of feelings I was still when that

27:16

particular incident happened I remember it was 2014 so one year before my collapse I was still delivering at a

27:23

very high level managing to hold it together but these were the kind of time when things were starting to shake uh

27:31

before it completely collapsed around me when I had to resign from the job and I was so

27:38

unwell at the time of resignation that I couldn't even go in and and do this face

27:43

Toof face I didn't even return my laptop or key and go in and have a conversation

27:49

it was a resignation where I basically left the country and sent it over an email and uh because I was so scared of

27:57

having any conversation I was not in the stage to have this because I knew they would ask questions and I wasn't ready

28:02

for it uh so once they had received it uh I traveled and met the them in in

28:10

Singapore later on and had a conversation and returned the items but uh that was two weeks later basically

28:16

after my resignation so I wasn't in a stage to go in and do a Handover or anything at this uh at this point of

28:23

time so can you can you take us into that moment where I you you've you've

28:28

been hard charging for 13 14 years through school and then climbing the

28:34

corporate ladder and then you get there and you experience I don't know maybe I don't know if You' call it impostor

28:39

syndrome or something where suddenly you feel like the ground had just turned liquid under your feet at your work and

28:44

in your relationship and that and that shift that seems like a pretty significant mind shift can you can you

28:50

take us into that into that moment of I guess profound existential

28:55

doubt yeah I can and it was small little details actually that was the issue

29:02

because I was doing really well in the job I was then a general manager for

29:07

medical services for a company serving 72 different clients mainly big American

29:13

Oil and Gas clients some of the biggest mines and oil and gas sites in Asia in in the world were our clients and I had

29:20

helped to pick up uh one massive contract winning this contract for the

29:26

company and I was really there on the business development and sales side because it was a medical company it was

29:32

doctors and operation and so on and that was not my main responsibility but of

29:38

course it was a complex business and I was pulled in all these challenging meetings as well and that's when I

29:44

started to have some self-doubt also being around doctors talking in very very difficult languages of course I

29:50

couldn't understand some of it um and uh what happened then also as we were

29:55

bidding the pressure was high multi million contracts uh my strength is not

30:01

Microsoft Excel and numbers and I remember being quite anxious trying to work long hours to understand it and the

30:09

issue is that I didn't speak up I didn't go to talk to my boss who had had I had a very very good relationship with her

30:16

uh she' in fact have hired me to this company twice in my life I used to spend a Sunday afternoon for barbecue at her

30:23

place we used to talk about everything in life but when it came to this I didn't go and just knock a door and and

30:30

say hey I'm a bit uncomfortable with these spreadsheets and I'm a bit worried because it's big numbers and uh maybe

30:36

this I could do with some extra help here I didn't do that I wanted to show that I had all the answers that I could

30:42

handle the heat that I could also do this and that's when all the self-doubt started to kick in and so just with that

30:50

small little thing step by step I start to play My Own Story and this built up

30:55

in my own head from being a small potential issue with a spreadsheet into

31:01

catastrophizing thinking that I must have made mistakes are going to get fired and so on so that's why I thought

31:07

it's better that I resign from this but than being terminated and this was all you know lies that I told myself so when

31:13

the resonation came in they couldn't understand what on Earth was going on here in fact when it finally happened

31:20

they tried to do everything to save me offering me other jobs and so on and you and you were still like no

The spiral into "smiling depression"

31:26

because you had felt that I guess you felt like you had already messed up and you were just waiting to be found out

31:32

yeah exactly which never happened it was only in my mind uh in fact that the big

31:37

client and the big win that happened at that stage was still with with this company as I checked in recently and and

31:45

this is you know 10 years ago uh so they had a very good view of what happened to

31:50

me it was just that I suddenly completely disappeared um as I couldn't

31:55

handle it anymore so was there a moment after you what what happened after you resigned

32:01

did you feel good about the decision I imagine that just as as much as that would have made things better on the

32:07

surface it probably made things worse inside oh it made everything worse

32:13

absolutely and I became dillusional trying to defend the decision more to

32:19

myself because I Disappeared there was not many people confronting me uh if someone asked something I said yeah I'm

32:25

I'm starting my own business I have many opportunities and so on and there was opportunities but I jumped on some

32:31

startup projects here and there and burned through my cash very very quickly to the point where I had to cash in my

32:38

pension plans and saving plans and everything else and until I was quite quickly

32:44

broke wow so this was a this was a pretty significant meltdown it also affected your family you said yeah

32:51

absolutely because I was then in in a divorce at this time uh and also my my

32:58

family back in Sweden my parents and so on could just watch from afar that perhaps something wasn't quite right but

33:03

I did everything to portray that things were fine but it was difficult to hold it together I gained a lot of weight

33:10

around 60 lbs uh pretty quickly I I stopped exercising and uh yeah started to drink

33:18

more hanging out more in the bars and that was uh my way of winding down and trying to escape reality and this was

33:26

this was what you called the smile depression right yes absolutely and that went on for then uh 3 years

33:33

almost 3 years three years in this stage so you would resign from the company and

33:39

then everything starts falling apart and you're just you're still wearing a smile I got everything under control don't

33:44

worry I got this yeah absolutely and I jumped from some companies where you know I was doing okay at least

33:51

collecting a salary able to pay my bills and so on but it wasn't giving me the Fulfillment and I was was still a bit

33:58

lost looking for what else to do did you did you have anyone in your life who was

34:04

like hey Nick like I know you and this isn't you like did you I mean I know that in in this world of Executives you

34:10

know Li housing is transient friends are transi and if you have friends at all it's hyperco competitive you're on the

34:17

other side of the world but did you have anyone in your life who was like trying to tap you on the shoulder and be like

34:22

hey something's going on no because I was kept escaping kept moving you know

34:28

moving country moving City moving job and so on so and uh I I didn't get that

34:34

in fact some of the people said it's good to see that you're you know enjoying yourself because before I used

34:39

to decline parties at that time you know I was still quite fit and training and

34:45

exercising and mainly focused on working hard before I remember even in my company and my boss said you know Nick

34:52

in one evaluation meeting he said maybe you need to you know go out a little bit more with your team and be there a little bit bit more social because I was

34:59

the first one to typically leave the party and and you know look looking after myself going to bed because I

35:05

wanted to go up and exercise the next day so I think to everyone it was just a complete shock when I it changed and

35:12

therefore I think no one also had a perception and I did my best to hide it and people didn't really know uh I made

35:19

new friends at the bar you know became local at the bars and these were new friends and and they probably had

35:25

similar issues so what are the things that you talk about in the book and that you're showing here is is about vulnerability

35:32

so maybe you can talk a little bit about about that about the process perhaps of learning to open up about these

35:38

things yeah and that was not something that came natural to me and what I learned is that it doesn't come natural

35:43

to most of us men especially what I have learned on vulnerability is that women

35:49

tend to have be a little bit better at this in general they typically have a few friends a few close friends who

35:55

they're quite open with and vulnerable with many of them perhaps also have open conversations with the parents

36:02

especially the mom so they used to having this open Line uh which we men typically don't and we're typically

36:08

perhaps there to show that we are strong and that we can hold it together and uh what I also seen and and learned in my

36:16

life and most most men I know is that while we have good friends and I had great friends too uh we perhaps go and

36:23

play some Sport with them or we watch TV together we have a good time together but we perhaps don't go deep perhaps we

36:30

don't explore and express our feelings uh so that's something that I had to learn and I didn't do that on purpose it

36:38

came actually by hitting rock button in 2018 uh at my lowest point then when I

36:45

basically written my wheel my Testament and uh basically cleaned up my act because I didn't think that my body

36:52

would keep going on uh what have happened then was that my left foot was swollen like an elephant foot and I I

36:59

couldn't understand why he was later diagnosed as a psychosomatic illness basically because for 3 years I hadn't

37:06

expressed my feelings uh I had pushed it all inside me it was the body's way to

37:13

basically Express itself and uh with that you know I couldn't hide anymore

37:18

because I couldn't put on a shoe uh and that's the time when you know I was just

37:23

getting remarried then to my second wife and I decided at that time then you know

37:30

I have to say something here and even her despite that you know she had been next to me at this time she didn't

37:36

understand that it was something wrong with me she knew that you know I gained some weight and but I was never angry

37:44

never bad to her and so on so at this stage I was still able to you know completely holding it together uh I

37:51

don't think she would have just married me otherwise I was married 3 weeks when this happened uh but I decided to be

37:58

honest and open with her and that was the beginning of my vulnerability chapter and after that she took me to a

38:05

doctor and I was vulnerable with the doctor then the same day also we went to a common friend who we knew had gone

38:11

through something similar a few years before and I was vulnerable and open with her as well so within 24 hours I'd

38:18

shared my story with three human beings and with that I was basically coming

38:24

from with a v-shaped recovery from that what did you share with those people in

The turning point: Opening up to three people

38:29

that in that what what details did you provide them how did you paint the picture for them well I I basically Shar

38:36

that you know alcohol had become a problem that I was drinking too much and I was hiding it even for my new wife she

38:42

didn't know she know knew I like to drink and but I always just kept perhaps

38:47

two three beers in the fridge and that's what I drank in front of her but when I was in my office working and so on I

38:53

would have more drinks in there and I would hide it and uh and drinking and I didn't drink so I was intoxicated so

39:01

that really she could notice it it was more to medicate myself around the clock

39:06

and uh therefore it went basically unnoticed my my my high consumption so I

39:13

had to be honest with that and seeking help for my health around that and alcohol is really bad when it comes to

39:19

mental health you get all that anxiety and so on so why I needed that to medicate myself to keep myself basically

39:27

from all the anxiety and panic attacks that happened when I didn't drink uh so that was the the first I had to be

39:33

honest and own up till and that then brought me to the 12 step program and uh

39:38

and since I went in there uh I remember the day was uh when I got professional

39:44

help also from a doctor and I walked to into a meeting on May 5 2018 uh as I walked out of that meeting

39:52

I haven't had a drink since well praise God for that so so um

39:59

so I guess one of another question I have is your family so you mentioned you mentioned your mother briefly in the

40:04

book um were they looking at you like something's not right or I guess the distance being so far away in Sweden you

40:11

they were able to see only what you showed them yeah I remember that most of

40:17

the time I was quite conscious what I shared on social media and quite selective uh but I can also remember

40:23

there was one time I was out quite late watching some uh football ball game on TV midnight or whatever having too many

40:30

drinks and I think I shared one picture on social media and I remember my mom

40:36

being sad and replied you know Nick you're not looking well uh are you turning alcoholic I remember her

40:42

comments and of course I declined that and I deleted that from social media but I think that was the only time when sort

40:49

of I I I was uh demonstrating a bad view when I was coming home to visit uh would

40:57

normally behave quite well I knew that you know I have to keep myself in order but sometimes even then perhaps I had

41:04

too many drinks and I remember you know hiding the drinks hiding the empty cans

41:09

and trying to transport that out the back door so they shouldn't see and so how much I was drinking and consuming at

41:15

the time uh but surely from time to time they understood that something is not

41:21

right now from your from your time in this in this executive world how many

41:26

what what percentage of people would you say uh men and women at that high level are struggling with situations similar

41:33

to yours well and estimates that I have from people running this like rehabs and

The shocking prevalence of executive addiction

41:41

so on in Asia is about 10 to 20% oh wow so 1 to 10 1 to 10 one one to

41:48

five people who are in these high-powered you know regional directors are are struggling with similar

41:53

situations that's a that's a pretty shocking statistic yeah and I think the

41:59

the the gray zone is much bigger so if you're talking about people who are clinically alcoholics or addicts or drug

42:06

addicts and so on if that's 10 20% of people in hype roles in Asia let's say

42:13

then the gray zone is perhaps another 30 40% you know people who are struggling

42:18

but have not really fallen over yet

42:25

mhm so um so just to just to maybe provide a

42:31

bit of a window what what sort of salaries are we talking about because obviously there's very strong incentives

42:37

in situations like this for people to to cover this up and it's not they're not this is not an everyday kind of job so

42:43

you don't have to disclose how much you were making of course less you want to but the the kind of money that people in this world are making and the incentives

42:50

that they have to keep this going what sort of salaries are we talking about um around uh 20 to 30, us a month salaries

42:59

and if you are coming out first most likely also your housing and all the bills will be cared for um that's the

43:07

kind of salaries that are quite common uh then typically these days so a lot of

43:13

it is localized which means uh that it's a lot lot lot less than that and you

43:18

have to provide your own housing and so on but if you just sent out on a new assignment that's typically what it is

43:24

but many times they have this on a rotation because they send you out how to get the experience and it has a limit

43:29

of three or five years or something like that but at that point maybe youd transition to a new job in the region or

43:36

new a new company yes absolutely and that's why it's the the packages are

43:42

lower if you typically if you get a local uh assignment instead so you're going through this

43:48

three-year period I think you said between 2015 and 2018 where you're just you're just declining you know weight's

43:55

increasing pan is swelling up inside you you're drinking to to to push the panic

44:01

down you're jumping jobs and you're you're meeting your second wife as all this is all as all this is happening as

44:08

you're sliding downhill and you said three weeks into the marriage is when you finally broke yeah absolutely and uh it was a

44:16

blessing that I did and it was a blessing that she listened to me with uh empathy and she didn't judge me she

44:23

could have just you know leave me right then it could have been a very short marri but I I I'm I'm blessed that she

44:30

didn't and uh with that you know it's been a wonderful journey and we have a wonderful relationship as well as a as a

44:37

result of this the fact that we can be honest and open with ourselves I didn't have that in my first relationship and

44:43

that's on me I wasn't ready to be myself and to be honest and to be open uh so

44:50

that that really set the scene for what was to come and if I understand Swedish

44:56

culture northern European culture it's not particularly emotionally expressive Americans can be very expressive

45:02

Italians but see swedes in general I don't think of is like the most emotionally open People absolutely and

45:08

we didn't discuss feelings and emotions in our family so that's something I have to learn as an adult and uh and it's

45:16

something that uh now with my son who's 16 years of age uh we have a very good

45:21

relationship he lives in Sweden but he come and visit me in Asia at least once a year and I'm spending about months uh

45:28

of the sum Swedish summer working from Sweden when I'm spending a lot of time with him and we are talking about

45:34

feelings and emotions and have a very strong and open relationship uh because I don't want him to grow up uh and be in

45:41

clo a closed book like I was amen maybe you can talk a little bit I want to talk about what happened you know as you were

Rebuilding relationship with his son through gaming

45:48

as you were in recovery and as you began to think about writing your book but maybe you can talk a little bit about

45:53

the process of rebuilding your relationship with your son which I guess is roughly a 10-year process at this

45:59

point yes exactly and uh I had to of course add him to the list of people to

46:05

make amends to as well as my ex-wife and uh I had got support with this and I

46:11

spoke through with a sponsor how to do it in the right way and so on and because he was little uh at the time you

46:18

know he was five six years old when I separated and then 8 n later on so it was more about making living amends for

46:24

him and being there showing up up and doing it in the right way uh before I couldn't care for myself so I couldn't

46:31

care for him either so I'm grateful that my ex-wife filed that Gap and did a wonderful job at the time relocating

46:38

back to Sweden after she herself had been an expert in Asia for some years working for the big American companies

46:44

out there uh it must have been a hard transition for her but she supported and managed to land him in a good school in

46:51

Sweden and so on so then when I realized all of this that I was falling short and

46:56

had to make amends uh I actually had an open conversation with my dad about this and we were able to together support

47:04

because at that time they were still living um with uh my ex-wife's parents because it was difficult to find an

47:10

apartment in Sweden but thanks to my father's connection and some financial

47:15

support we were able to get them an apartment in Sweden where they could live so that was one way of you know

47:22

making some amends for what have happened and then also um lat on I've

47:27

been quite open and honest with my son he's now 16 uh to share about the

47:32

struggle I had and what I went through and what I learned from it and uh I also took some external professional help at

47:39

the time because uh living AAR I couldn't connect with him when he was 8 n years old it was very difficult to

47:46

have a call with him and and get to know him so I actually went to see a child psychologist in Singapore he was quite

47:53

surprised about my request to get help with this but she really helped me uh

47:58

helped me to understand how can I have better deeper conversations with him and uh she asked for example me to ask my ex

48:04

wife to get a list of all his friends and a description of them a list of all his subjects in school and the name of

48:11

the teachers and she said can you ask your ex-wife for a copy of the schedule as his school and so on so I got all of

48:18

that so I could at least start study this and when I had calls with him over the phone or over Skype as I used at the

48:24

time then at least I knew a little bit of information I could ask him some questions about his teachers his

48:30

subjects I could ask him about some of his friends and at least I demonstrated

48:36

I made an attempt to try to understand him so instead of having a 30 second call at least I was able to hold a

48:43

two-minute conversation but still I remember falling short about this and I remember asking for more help of the

48:49

psychologist and that's when um she asked please map out and understand what

48:55

is it he love to do ask again your ex-wife also what does his days look like what does he do when he's

49:01

really happy and as most teenage kids then he he was he loved multi

49:07

multiplayer gaming online gaming and uh that's when the the psychology said well

49:13

you have to get into that then so what I did I went out to get myself a gaming computer I got a headset uh and and a

49:20

webcam for me and for my son I went over to Sweden and set all this up and I

49:25

start to learn how to to play his games the ones he wanted to play I Remember spending time on YouTube how to really

49:32

play it and we started to play and that's when we kept this up on every Saturday afternoon for 3 hours for many

49:39

years and that's when we really really built a really strong connection because

49:45

like me being an introvert he's also an intert very shy and we never had any

49:50

deep conversations but as we spent hours in the games and he showed me around his

49:55

world he kept building during the week and during the weekend he was looking forward to this moment to show me around

50:01

introduce me to everything in the game and then I was in his world on his terms

50:06

and that buil some connection that is really really strong so if I'm looking

50:12

at you know having played over a few years it must have been 500 hours together we played so I spent 500 hours

50:20

inside his world wow I think there's a lesson for many fathers there that's a genuine

50:27

commitment of time and investment to to go into his world to build more than

50:32

just rebuild a bridge but build an enduring relationship I imagine and now he spends you said you spend two months

50:39

a year in Sweden and then he comes to visit you in Singapore yeah that's right and similar

50:46

mindset and thinking like around the gaming he still games but he probably don't want me in the games anymore as a

50:52

teenager he has his own friends now but but I I've been looking at the

50:58

same thing and keep exploring what are the Hobbies he like and where do we have overlaps where can we do together and I

51:04

like cycling he he likes cycling so I got him a bicycle in Sweden so we

51:09

actually together go out cycling quite a lot when we are in Sweden he also like

51:15

road trips travel in a car and what I learned for as men is that the best conversations are not when we're facing

51:21

each other eye to eye the best conversation are when we're doing something Side by side it can be walking

51:28

cycling or driving a car together because then you can have time to think and time to respond without feeling that

51:35

someone is looking you straight in the eyes and I'm now studying to become a psychotherapist and counselor and a big

51:40

part of how to do that job I found out is also how you set up the room and just

51:46

like that you should sit side by side and not looking each other in the eyes so now I can understand why those

51:53

activities seems to work best so I always let him pick where he want to go

51:58

in Europe every summer he can pick one destination and then he can spend time to look up where what are places he want

52:05

to see where does he want to stay and then basically based on that we do a road trip which then feels for him that

52:11

he's in charge it's him who picked where he want to go and we're going together there to explore things on his terms H

52:19

and that again keeps building a relationship he's now 16 and uh he's

52:24

happy to do it he committed already we're going to go somewhere to Luxembourg in July and he's looking

52:30

forward to it so rather than me pushing my agenda and inviting him to come giving him a chance to reject it it's

52:36

him who's in charge basically this is great I have so many questions so so um I guess what will

52:44

what are you passing down to your son about high achievement now because I imagine having sailed to the you know

52:51

climbed to the Heights and and been so deeply disillusioned in so many ways and yet also knowing that achievement is the

52:58

path to to many forms of Freedom what sort of lessons are you passing down to him now about as he begins to look into

53:04

having his own career yeah that's an open conversation that I have with him and also because it very much involves

53:11

my ex-wife we also have these conversations and since I made amends with her we have probably a better

53:16

relationship now than we ever had than when we when we were married uh and we

53:22

have faced some challenges uh we both wanted to have him in a good International School in Sweden and where

53:29

he could learn English and he was in one until two years ago but then it was a lot of incidents in the school uh there

53:37

were kids uh who uh who brought in drugs there was someone lighting a fire

53:42

sometime there was knives in school and then I remember one incident when I spoke to him over the phone and uh at

53:50

this time uh there's been the the teacher had called and the the kids had

53:55

been in the shop and they've been stealing things and that's when I spoke with him and I asked him about this

54:01

incident and he said well if I also steal then the risk of the police

54:07

catching me but if I don't steal my friends will bully me and maybe hit me so he was very confused about what to do

54:13

with this and he asked me for advice and I I just asked the question back what what can you do what options do you have

54:20

so I acted as as a coach and didn't judge him didn't get angry with him I

54:25

just asked him to think about it and we kept having this dialogue back and forth for quite some time where he was

54:31

thinking coming up with suggestion Solutions and uh it was his own proposal and suggestion to then change school to

54:39

another city another school a local school and I spoke with my ex-wife about

54:44

this and uh she felt a bit sad but we in the end supported it and before we made

54:50

this decision we even hired a coach for him a neutral source which he could

54:56

speak with about this decision this massive decision of changing school so that he really really felt empowered

55:03

that he was ready to do this he was 14 years at that time and we made it clear both my ex-wife and I that we will

55:09

support him and back him uh and we wanted him to make the best decision for himself uh so he knew what he was going

55:16

through and we didn't give him any advice but let him make the decision I just said I also changed school when I

55:22

was 14 and it was difficult this what happened to me I felt a bit lonely when I started I felt a bit isolated I felt a

55:29

bit left out and so on uh so we just had a very open conversation uh about it all

55:35

and in the end yeah he was feeling lonely when he just started his new school and we spoke about the feelings

55:41

of that and that he would get used to it and coached him on the side what can he do there few people he can start to see

55:48

and so on and he got over that face and now at least the relationship again got stronger because we didn't push our

55:55

agenda of being proud parents of him being in a good international school as opposed to his wish of being in a school

56:02

where he could feel safe I'm just I'm really struck by the

56:07

difference that you're articulating between the man you were when you were having your crisis and before even even

56:13

before 2015 and the man that you're describing now what is it what is it like reflecting on the the two different

56:20

versions of yourself that you've been yeah so as I started this journey

From pushing to asking: The transformation

56:26

of being open and vulnerable I apply that to everything in my life and that's also with parenting uh I'm not the one

56:34

to push any buttons to tell a force uh teenager what to do he will just resent

56:40

me then so I always when I face a challenge take a step back and think who who can help us with this conversation

56:47

uh as in the case of getting a CO his own coach for him to have these conversations because I knew this could

56:52

be this could have been the thing for life life that he would have resented us for forcing him to remain in the school

57:00

where there's trouble that would never have been a good thing but I thought how we going to make this shift uh was uh

57:07

was the most important thing and I apply that to everything in my life including my sport of triathlon I did Triathlon

57:13

before so then I asked okay who can help me to enjoy Triathlon more and who how

57:19

can I be better a triathlon well get a coach uh so that's what I have in that

57:24

area and and and and I read a book by author Andy Lata who says uh just ask

57:32

that's the book and that's how I apply to every situation in my life uh these days because that's not what I did I now

57:40

always just ask so before you were you just you just acted and now you ask yeah that's the

57:47

big Shi that's the big shift yeah so as you're going through so there was a

57:53

period of time you went through your collap leading into 2015 or I guess the three-year slide began in 2015 down to

58:00

2018 2018 was rock bottom and now we're in 2025 so seven years later so talk a

58:05

little bit about climbing up out of that out of that ditch that you had you had fallen

58:11

into yeah so first I recovered physically and mentally reasonably quickly and just you know removing the

58:17

alcohol and getting back into exercise and eating well within 2 3 months I was

58:22

really really good I remember I signed up and did a half marathon on after about 3 months feeling great and I then

58:29

signed up for full Iron Man uh for the year after which I trained for uh and uh

58:36

and then I got new healthy friends and so on and really a positive spin so my

58:41

first year was really focusing on recovery myself and then what happened after one year is when I lost a friend

58:48

of mine in Singapore to suicide and that was the game changer again because until

58:53

then I lived in this bubble where you know I some people knew I had gone through a difficult time but when I lost

59:00

my friend to Suicide I decided to take action and I I I called up the suicide

59:06

prevention agency called SOS Samaritans in Singapore I became a volunteer and a

59:11

fundraiser and that's the day when I also made my my story and public I made

59:18

a LinkedIn video that went viral all around the world where I shared about my

59:23

struggle and where I was and that I overcome it by then because I was one year in and I start to feel safe talking

59:30

about it so you so you actually you did a form of confession really where you

59:36

were kind of revealing this is what was going on in my life this was happening and I imagine that resonated with quite

59:42

a few people yes it did and it was a shock to the community having lost our

59:47

dear friend Simon to suicide and someone who seemed to have it all together in fact he just been to mount ever base

59:54

camp one of his dreams was to go there and he had a girlfriend he loved everything was looking great on the

59:59

outside there was no one of us and no one of his family had any idea that he was going through a difficult time it

1:00:05

didn't certainly didn't show uh while at least on Me on the outside you can see I would I gained a lot of weight I looked

1:00:12

unhealthy but in the case of Simon he he's perfect he had that perfect beautiful smile and healthy body on the

1:00:20

outside so it was clearly something going on and then when we lost him then there was this was the the calling for

1:00:27

me to really speak up and while I was in a shock I let my fences down and I

1:00:32

started to communicate clearly on social media which I might never have done otherwise this might have been a

1:00:39

secret if we hadn't lost Simon what were you saying in the video

Going public after a friend's suicide

1:00:45

I basically shared about the the cause for Simon and that I set up a fund and that I I I wanted to uh basically remove

1:00:54

the stigma about discussing loneliness and the the feelings around that and also uh that that we need we need to

1:01:01

have more open and vulnerable and open conversations that was basically as much as I shared and donations started to

1:01:08

pour into this charity and uh with that also uh I was the next 24 hours on live

1:01:15

TV radio uh newspaper articles and so on and they all said the same thing we

1:01:21

wanted to run this kind of story for years all the journalist said but no one is able to step forward and talking

1:01:29

about it being themselves everyone can do it anonymously but it doesn't make any news so the fact that they had

1:01:34

someone who was willing to talk on this topic made the the whole difference to

1:01:40

them and with that then uh I actually received the biggest mental health related media exposures in Singapore's

1:01:47

history a business newspaper writing a four pages feature on the story of Simon

1:01:52

my story and so on and this was then groundbre for this country I imagine that was the moment

1:01:59

where you're like well I I guess I'm committed to this path now absolutely and that's when the idea of the book

1:02:06

came up and everyone said you must put this in the book and it was reasonably easy then because uh also Publishers

1:02:12

starting to call and say you know we we need something on this so it was very very easy it was an Australian publisher

1:02:19

especially who really wanted to recover this topic so let's let's talk a little bit about the book now actually let's

1:02:25

let's let talk about the book is executive loneliness let's unpack the word loneliness real quick because it it

1:02:31

wouldn't necessarily be obvious I mean you can think about you can imagine why someone might be lonely lonely but that

1:02:36

wouldn't be a title that people would think that executives are experiencing that particular

1:02:42

form yeah absolutely I was looking around what what to call the book and I you know this they're saying it's lonely

1:02:49

at the top and perhaps that's talking about just a boss perhaps if it's lonely

1:02:55

at the top that's the CEO and as I start to do research I realize it's yes it's Lonely at the Top to be a CEO but it's

1:03:02

also through the whole organization being an executive in those job it doesn't have to be CEO you can be in any

1:03:09

you can be senior manager or manager in the company being an executive then uh you can have have feelings of isolation

1:03:16

if you don't have someone who you feel safe to talk to someone at your level perhaps or if you don't have anyone

1:03:22

internally a mentor or someone that you can have conversations about your straggle and stress and and so on then

1:03:29

you can definitely feel lonely and isolated in the workplace know particularly if you're if you're keeping

1:03:36

some amount of insecurity in your performance or something that you don't know that becomes in your experience

1:03:42

that was very isolating is that you felt out of your depth you weren't actually but you felt out of your depth and that

1:03:47

led to a cascading kind of spiral when as you yourself said if you had just spoken up to your boss which probably

1:03:53

would have been a pretty easy conversation but that that isolation kicked in yeah absolutely and uh as I

1:04:01

then start to talk on this topic you know and doing surveys interviews for the book I was quite shocked with the

1:04:07

findings I mean uh for a start then uh over 30% were suffering from loneliness

1:04:13

and then the issue on top of that was that 84% of them wouldn't feel

1:04:18

comfortable to talk about anything related to mental health with a boss with a company so that means that they

1:04:24

are you know you know perhap suffering and they not talking to the company if you then add on top of this that 75%

1:04:32

were not ready to seek professional help that really means that you're suffering in in

1:04:38

isolation and so well let's talk a little bit about the structure of the book what some of the things are in it

1:04:43

just maybe just run through you know this the how you how you put the whole thing together yeah so the I was blessed

1:04:52

in the sense that I had an alcohol problem because that gave me this wonderful 12-step program which has been

1:04:58

around for 100 years and helped millions of people it was a winning formula there that helped me and as I said it only

1:05:04

took me one meeting to go in there spend one hour around people who gone through this before to walk out of there and

1:05:11

never needing to have an alcoholic drink again uh that is in itself a miracle uh

1:05:18

then it is a program that is not a religious program it's a spiritual

1:05:23

program so that means that that prr basically everyone can have a god of their own understanding uh to make it

1:05:30

simple to make it inclusive for everyone but the fact that it it's built on pillars and

1:05:36

spirituality uh which was something that I had not been exposed to was what I needed at the time that it was not only

1:05:42

up to me I could surrender to a power greater than myself which was A New Concept for me so that was the

1:05:48

foundation then that I learned for the 12 step program and then I realized there must be so many other people out

1:05:54

there who have never been exposed to this many people have declined perhaps a

1:06:01

God or power greater than our these days and that's what I thought is needed so

1:06:06

the book in itself are the steps uh that you get in the recovery 12-step recovery

1:06:13

program but without the addiction so not everyone you shouldn't have to be an alcoholic or drug addict or social media

1:06:20

addict in order to fall into these recovery programs in order to get some help so that's why the book is written

1:06:27

for anybody uh who who don't have an addiction but still want to look at

1:06:32

themselves or perhaps have some feelings of anxiety or loneliness uh in their life and especially in the workplace and

The 12-step program for non-addicts

1:06:39

so what are what are some of the recommendations for those of us who haven't been through any of the steps

1:06:44

yeah so the first step there is really taking stock so as I shared I had to do that moral inventory and also list of

1:06:51

all the people I had harmed and so on and all the pain points in life and do ment that so just like if you are a

1:06:58

store owner you would do you know an audit or stock take once a year once a

1:07:03

quarter or some once a day would count to stock how often do we do that with ourselves how often do we do this an

1:07:10

honest audit of ourselves and that is really the the that stood out it was the

1:07:15

first time in my life I was asked to do that and that thereo is the step one in

1:07:21

my book MH and then we'll just run through it real quick I've got got it I've got it here in front of me so what

1:07:29

was that like for you actually like you you mentioned that I think you you wrote In the book that you hadn't really had a conception of God or a higher power up

1:07:36

until that point and suddenly you were introduced to this notion of you are you are bound by this kind of higher moral

1:07:42

law that you violated that you had been ignoring for a long time yeah it was

1:07:48

that kind of campose you know or north star that I needed at the time because

1:07:53

many times in the corporate world it's all about about us me you know it's too much of the ego we perhaps elbow our way

1:08:00

to the top we step on people's toe it's me me me because if you don't play the

1:08:05

game then perhaps someone else will take the promotions you know so the FY can be a selfish Journey right and uh that is

1:08:13

not serving you well for your for your mental health though and just to accept

1:08:19

that there's a power greater than myself out there is something that perhaps many in the corporate world have forgotten

1:08:25

and we need to be reminded about this that we are part of something bigger and if we're stepping on someone's toes

1:08:30

we're also stepping on our own toes and just then you know in this process it sort of humbles us right and it connects

1:08:38

us with the universe therefore connect us with our fellows so it's a lot of that work that is happening in a

1:08:44

recovery program and that's the fifth step and the last step in my book which is really finding your purpose and with

1:08:51

finding your purpose is not only the organizational purpose not only the targ and kpis that your company is so good to

1:08:58

give you as your road map there you also need other purposes in your life and at

1:09:03

least being open to that it's not you who is the center of the universe which is the starting point here I I think the

1:09:11

thing that's this this picture that's getting painted of this 10year journey that you've been on essentially is it

1:09:17

looks to me as a man who lived a an amoral life like you weren't immoral it doesn't sound like you were stealing or

1:09:24

doing anything you were playing with within the rules of the game in the corporate world which the corporate world which can be quite ruthless but

1:09:30

that's the rules of the game that everyone agrees to and it's sort of an aoral way of being and it seems to me

1:09:35

that over the past decade you've learned a more moral way of being like you know that there's right and wrong and you're

1:09:41

accountable for the right and the wrong things that you've done yes absolutely and that's something that I bring with

1:09:47

me now in most of my conversations most of my decisions I need to make in office there's always will be a gray Zone which

1:09:54

way to take here but I'm now trying to take back a step and looking at this from what I learned and see which is the

1:10:01

right path here and many times we can actually have open honest conversations with our business partners bosses about

1:10:07

it and say I know that we're supposed to go this way but I morally feel that this

1:10:13

is not quite right this is what I feel inside me and I think that this would be a more the other path and we can have a

1:10:21

have conversations and I had a such a conversation last night with one of my business partners and I felt great

1:10:28

afterwards the fact that I had flagged that I didn't feel that this path that we on in regard to this decision is

1:10:35

quite right so is there anyone that's in your life today that was in your life around

1:10:42

2015 2018 other than your wife maybe maybe your ex-wife could be an example

1:10:47

or a friend or your family members that they've reflected to you you're not the same guy you were a decade ago because

1:10:53

I'm hearing it as you describe it yeah there's definitely people who who seen the change who are motivated by the

1:11:00

change and also my friends from back home in Sweden who remember me as a construction worker uh you know and some

1:11:08

of them are still in the same role working in construction so they've seen the growth and they also seen the the

1:11:15

the humility in me the fact that I I'm the one who's staying in touch with them I go and see them for a coffee and a

1:11:21

lunch every summer when I'm back in Sweden I don't judge them uh but during the years when I was chasing the

1:11:27

corporate ladder and the game then they wouldn't see me when I was home you know I would be home just a few days and and

1:11:34

rushing on to the next mission uh so I was quiet so those were some of those friends were on my M list and the amend

1:11:41

was simply that I'm sorry I was not in touch for 10 years I I I was too focused

1:11:46

on growing myself and I'm sorry that I I rejected and neglected our relationship

1:11:52

and most of them have accepted that and they will say oh I'm sorry too I should have been in touch I didn't also so you

1:11:59

know I'm the one who who now waking up these relationships and the friends I know back home who who go for a run I

1:12:07

reached out one or two months before saying I'm going to be in Sweden in July should we stick in a morning when we go

1:12:12

for a run or a walk together and they're grateful for that so I just focus on the positivity and and rewaking all these

1:12:20

relationships even going 30 40 years back so so to help sort of crystallize

1:12:26

the picture a little bit 10 years ago when you would wake up in the morning like where were you at when you woke up

1:12:32

in the morning like mentally emotionally spiritually first thing you get up maybe you're hung over whatever what was what

1:12:38

were those early minutes of waking like and then maybe kind of what are they like now which is probably more your state of being currently yeah in the

The contrast: Morning life then vs. now

1:12:45

beginning I was uh holding it together disining myself quite firmly you know I

1:12:50

would be very strict I will only have three beers after work I will be back I will be better at 9:00 at night so I can

1:12:57

be up at 5:00 a.m. to do my exercise the next day as a high aever I had to really

1:13:02

look after myself uh uh and I knew that but mentally that meant I just kept adding pressure pressure pressure and it

1:13:09

was when I then left the job where the wheels really fell off and then I didn't have a job to go to and then step by

1:13:16

step the drinking took over so one year I was still able to do the exercise perhaps I canel some workouts and slept

1:13:23

in a little bit but I was still operating at the high level but I remember in 2015 I did a full distance

1:13:30

Iron Man event at the time which is a 2.4 mile swim a 100 mile 112 mile bike

1:13:37

ride and a 26.2 mile run in Marathon I did that in Australia and uh I remember

1:13:43

cramping in the ocean when I swam because I had not been too healthy and that's when I thought well I could drown

1:13:49

here so I I better stop this sport by now and that's when in 20167

1:13:55

then I didn't have the sport I didn't have a job that that was really motivating for me uh that's when

1:14:01

drinking took over and with that I lost it so yes in the end I I was a morning Drinker as well I needed to medicate

1:14:08

myself in the last months uh just to be able to get on with the day uh so that's

1:14:13

very different from today it's now early morning here in uh I'm in Thailand today where my back offices and um going out

1:14:21

for a bike ride in about 30 minutes here with a group of people so I get my physical health and I get my Social

1:14:28

Health by going out with a group and uh I I feel good it is definitely no

1:14:33

hangover here today and so as you've gone through this shift and this man that you've become

1:14:39

have have you sparked curiosity and those around you those you know who are curious like what what do you have CU

1:14:46

maybe I want some of what you've got oh yeah absolutely yes and I'm writing my second book on this now and that's what

1:14:54

I'm doing also as a coach and as a speaker a keynote speaker and in

1:14:59

workshops and trainings uh going out to share my story because many in the corporate world are chasing just that

1:15:06

they're chasing the the kpis the targets the promotions so it's a wakeup call for

1:15:11

everybody to look after themselves and while alcohol was perhaps the biggest poison in my life uh most Executives

1:15:19

when I come in and talk to them have their own addictions it can be everything from Netflix to Tik Tok to

1:15:25

overeating or sugar addiction or others and it's about them hearing my story and

1:15:31

and looking at themselves and being honest with themselves and and going on the Journey of of facing that and and

1:15:38

getting getting the help they need and so maybe you can describe a little bit about the work that you do I

1:15:44

believe your organization is ESG some of the some of the the coaching work and some of the Consulting work you do

1:15:49

around the world now yes so as a coach I work on oneone with with Executives on

1:15:56

then holistic health which is not only the the the the professional T but also

1:16:02

looking after themselves so one-on-one coach but then I come in with teams and uh just did a Leadership Summit in the

1:16:09

last couple of weeks for quite some companies or one or 200 uh team members for a full day where i'm sharing my

1:16:15

story first so that they should feel that I've been open I've been vulnerable and then I take them through the steps

1:16:22

basically a simulation in the room where first they look at you know do they have any bad habits any anything that is

1:16:29

serving them bad uh so the bit on that taking stock is it something that they need surrender to and actually everyone

1:16:36

will have most will have something especially as I mentioned social media is quite a big one and people will say I

1:16:43

used to read a book one hour every night but now as you're saying this I realize I spend that one hour on Tik Tok instead

1:16:49

or on net watching Netflix so it's a wakeup call for everyone to then pinpoint that and then I take them

1:16:56

through the steps by you know helping them to set goals not only professionally but personal goals also

1:17:02

relationship goals uh so they have a more Balanced Life so in a nutshell it's

1:17:08

really about holistic leadership where you also looking after yourself and not just the the company purpose I imagine

1:17:16

it's been quite rewarding to see transformations in your clients yes absolutely and and back to

1:17:22

where we also started will I said that went on a mission you know to see if if I can help someone to get out of the

1:17:29

thoughts of suicide and I just the fact that I have plenty of these and my best

1:17:35

Christmas gift in 2024 was to receive a message from one man who sent me a

1:17:40

message basically thanking me and letting me know that he was alive today because the help that I given him and I

1:17:47

only share that because um it's really all that is needed sometimes we just need to be there to listen to someone

1:17:54

and make someone feels safe and give them the opportunity to share something because that's when the pattern is

1:18:00

broken uh at perhaps that final hour for someone when they're considering going

1:18:05

and then what's on the mind is is is there someone who I feel safe enough about to break this news so is is

1:18:11

someone I can talk to and if if we can be more of these people who are

1:18:17

available for them then we can do wonders for each other and so as you look back over the

The hand of providence in Nick's journey

1:18:23

course of the past 10 or 15 years do you feel a sense of the hand of Providence moving that you were sub all these

1:18:30

things were happening in your life you went through this Decline and and recovery and and then you sort of

1:18:35

spontaneously emerged onto the public stage talking about these things and you found there was more need and you've

1:18:41

built this up and blessed so many people do you feel that there was a story being told with your life that perhaps was

1:18:47

larger than you yeah absolutely I think this is definitely my life purpose you know

1:18:54

that's this was the journey I was going to go on and it's been Miracles along the way

1:19:01

uh and I call it that I have a life now beyond my wildest dreams and what I mean

1:19:07

with that is that the things I could picture before uh perhaps sports cars and Pen houses all those the things

1:19:14

deadly things those are no longer on my list now it is about Connections honesty

1:19:19

and being that person and feeling connected uh this is things that I Don't

1:19:25

Come Easy to me because being indeed from Sweden where we don't talk about feelings and emotions and so on and also

1:19:31

being an introvert uh and growing up in a family where we didn't talk on these things to be able to feel fully

1:19:38

connected these days that's something that I couldn't picture and that's worth more than anything yeah leading your

1:19:45

leading all of these Executives to truth and leading your family and leading your

1:19:50

son and and patching all these things up it's what an incredible story to tell of of transformation and

1:19:56

Redemption yeah thank you will and it's great to talk to you about it today great to share this and I hope it's some

1:20:03

hope in this for everyone no matter where they are in their life if they're going through a challenging time as we

1:20:09

said is is a purpose for it and that is to go through this and learn from it and being as open and vulnerable as we

1:20:15

possibly can about it well thank you so much Nick this is this is a very moving story for me to hear there I wish that

1:20:22

there were more men that completed the journey success sucessfully as you have and it's always so inspiring to hear it

1:20:28

mirrors a lot of my own story so thank you very much thank you for having this very important conversation amen so the

1:20:35

book is executive loneliness where would you like to send people to find out more about you and what you do I'm quite

1:20:42

active on LinkedIn for anyone who want to follow me there it's Nick Johnson ni i c k j n SS o n or indeed the book

1:20:50

executive loneliness is available on Amazon and for those who prefer it it's also on Audible as an audio book do you

1:20:59

read it uh I read it yes I do yeah excellent excellent well thank you so much Nick

1:21:06

I'll be sure to send people that way and I hope you enjoy your bike ride today thank you will and thanks all the

1:21:12

listeners