0:00

the funny thing about living in an era of social media is that that illusion of

0:05

potential Fame is closer it's more sustainable than it's ever been I think

0:10

Madam hrot says it's sustainable energy for the demons um that like the illusion

0:16

that you could go and make yourself famous like I mean potentially you could I guess if you knew how to work the you

0:23

know with these apps or whatever and you really wanted to pursue that I just think what it means is that the average woman who doesn't who isn't pursuing

0:30

that still has her fingers just so close to this sort of Illusion that she could

0:35

be famous um what I've seen at least among women is that there is a weird idea that you're you're too special for

0:43

normal [Music]

0:53

life hello my name is Will Spencer and welcome to the will Spencer podcast this

Introduction to Tilly Dillehay’s Book

0:58

is a weekly Show featuring in-depth conversations with authors leaders and influencers who help us understand our

1:04

changing World new episodes release every Friday my guest this week is Tilly

1:09

dillah a wife and mother and author of The excellent new book my dear Hemlock

1:15

out now on Canon press the premise of the book is simple what if the screw tape letters were written about two

1:20

demons tempting a woman how would their correspondant differ from Lewis's classic what uncomfortable truths would

1:27

it reveal about women's hearts and most most importantly how might it bless women to see themselves reflected in

1:33

ways the culture will do anything to prevent them seeing as you'll hear me say in this interview I've read many

1:40

books this year but my dear Hemlock might be my favorite of the year but will you might ask you're a man what

1:46

could you possibly have to take away from a book written about the hearts of women let me explain those who have been

1:53

listening to this podcast for a while will remember the author Allison Armstrong who wrote the book The Queen's

1:59

code and it prequel the keys to the kingdom Allison has been on my podcast

2:04

twice two of my most downloaded episodes of all time and she also appeared at the Renaissance of women proverbs 31

2:11

conference I hosted online in summer 2023 Allison's books were a huge part of

2:16

my journey through the conversation about masculinity the Queen's code especially showed me that a there were

2:22

women who cared about understanding men and B that women could have a unique appreciation of men as well because

2:29

having been raised in a hyper feminist culture I'd exclusively met women who felt called to weaken men or quote

2:36

castrate them in Allison's words in the war between the Sexes it had always been weapons-free for women encouraged to use

2:43

their verbal gifts to punish men for patriarchy leaving men with little or no ways to retaliate so to read the Queen's

2:51

code in 2018 was a revelation to me as I was learning about masculinity because

2:56

it showed that there were indeed women out there who wanted to learn learn to love and appreciate men at least

3:02

somewhere on Earth the sexist didn't have to be at War and so once I started my podcast and began working on my

3:09

documentary I befriended Allison and spoke with her publicly three times and many other times in private but as I

3:16

continued on my Christian walk I began to see that the modern and New Age influences of Allison's books were too

3:24

much for me to ignore there's talk about yoga PG-13 references to sexuality and

3:29

two of the characters even sleep together as part of the story which to be fair is framed as the way a virtuous

3:36

man can help the woman he loves overcome a prior experience of sexual abuse it's

3:41

not casual sex per se and yet from a Christian worldview it is furthermore

3:46

the Queen's code book may even be channeled material I doubt Alison would use that language but others have and

3:53

last but not least at the end of the Queen's code story Allison leaves unanswered the question of what the

3:59

hardened career feminist will do when she grows in her femininity and falls in love with a successful man will that

4:06

character leave her career to be a mom having known Allison I doubt she'd land in that choice the way I'd want her to

4:12

and if the character stays in her career that wouldn't exactly fit with the character's feminine trajectory so it's

4:19

convenient that the stickiest question in all of femininity today was left unanswered for all these reasons and

4:26

more even though I once found the book to be an invaluable tool to help women deprogram from multigenerational

4:32

feminism I can no longer recommend it for Christian audiences so where would I find a book that can serve the same

4:38

function what tools could I recommend to Christian women who are wanting to learn how to relate to men and that would be

4:44

as convicting as I've seen the Queen's code be holding a lens up to the dark heart of women's modern Rebellion from

4:51

their design there aren't many books like that today frankly because that idea is not popular nothing is more

4:57

forbidden in our culture than the idea that women do have a design an entire documentary what is a woman was produced

5:04

about it specifically because no one wants to answer that simple question the answer Matt Walsh gives isn't even all

5:10

that great plus the American Evangelical Church is far more feminist than it wants to admit both men and women

5:17

submission might be the dirtiest word in the English language and any book that could replace the Queen's code would

5:23

also have to address the negative influences of not just culture but women's friends the media and even the

5:29

subtle ways the world expertly plays on women's vanity especially young women

5:34

this as you might imagine is a tall order for the modern Christian publishing industry except now enter

5:40

til's my dear Hemlock on you guessed it Canon press which does all of this and

5:45

more from an explicitly Christian framework even better Tilly is a woman

5:51

this isn't a pastor or male Faith leader lecturing down to women about what they are nor is it a fearful feminist male

5:58

looking up to women in a form of culturally acceptable slightly critical affirmation instead it's the wife of a

6:05

pastor calmly looking women and herself in the eye and telling women what's there in fact men barely even play a

6:13

role in the story the demons Madame Hox rot and the junior devil Hemlock make

6:18

reference to men and to our foibles and temptations but it isn't about men specifically my dear Hemlock keeps the

6:25

focus squarely and uncomfortably locked on a woman throughout all the seasons of life it's a bracing story that reflects

6:32

back on men as well because Sin is Sin and though the sins unique to men are quite different than the sins unique to

6:38

women they do interlock and so as a man it also helped me see how I can be a

6:43

better leader to prevent as best I can the sins that may beset my future wife Lord willing so perhaps now you can see

6:51

why this book of all I've read this year struck me so sincerely while I'm far less bullish than I once was on the idea

6:58

of the great reconciliation because that will be a gift of God following our societal repentance and not a work of

7:04

man I'm still hopeful that enemy combatants of what I've called the sexual holy war will one by one be

7:11

convicted by the Holy Spirit to throw down their arms and walk off the battlefield and my prayer continues to

7:18

be that when they do they will walk into God's design for men and for women however unpopular it may be however much

7:25

scorn it may draw however many headwinds we may encounter because because past all the marring of original sin we're

7:32

still made in God's image which means there's a garden out there waiting for us as children of Adam and Eve May Tilly

7:38

Dill's book my dear Hemlock help show the way for all of us now let's be real

7:44

this podcast isn't just another show it's a conversation about things that actually matter so if you enjoy this

7:49

podcast I need three things from you first subscribe hit that button like you mean it and make sure to click the Bell

7:56

icon so you don't miss future episodes secondly leave a real comment not a throwaway great video I want to hear

8:03

your actual thoughts what challenged you what made you think differently third share this these conversations matter

8:10

and if something we discussed could help someone else see the world differently you have a responsibility to pass it

8:16

along want to go deeper check out my substack or buy me a coffee and those links are in the show notes every

8:22

contribution keeps this independent platform running and please welcome this week's guest on the podcast the author

8:29

of my dear Hemlock out now on kenon press Tilly dillah Tilly dillah thanks so much for

Will Spencer Welcomes Tilly Dillehay

8:36

joining me on the will Spencer podcast it's so good to be with you I'm excited so I have your I have your new book Here

8:43

My Dear Hemlock uh I I've been reading this in preparation for the interview and uh I have to let you know I've read

8:50

many books this year this might be my favorite book that I've read this year so thank you so much for writing this wow that's great to hear thank you yeah

Tilly’s Inspiration for *My Dear Hemlock

8:58

no thank you I think um I was there were sections that I was reading um where I

9:03

was like I I couldn't believe that first that this book got written and second that it got published especially given

9:09

the given the era that we're in yeah well not everybody would have published it I think that's that's just the truth

9:17

so it's an Ecentric project for sure what do you mean by an eccentric project

9:23

well it just it was um I guess to imitate screw ape is a is probably a

9:31

thing that someone shouldn't do honestly but um so just doing an imitation form

9:38

for a book um for it to be fiction but not really fiction that's you know

9:43

unusual and then for it to be hitting a lot of things about about

9:48

just women's lives that are often I think not talked about there just there were a lot of things about the book that

9:54

I knew it wouldn't be a fit for just any publishing house so um yeah I was really

10:00

grateful that they agreed to kind of run with me on it because I see it as being an eccentric project for sure yes yeah I

10:08

heard your interview with Doug Wilson where you said you kind of had a feeling that Canon would be the right place to go with that versus some other yeah yeah

10:15

they were perfect what was what was the inspiration behind the book like walk me through the the Genesis of it we like I

10:21

think I'll try screw tape letters but written from the perspective of a woman yeah um I was just remembering this for

10:29

a friend in in a conversation with a friend about the book this week that it started as some blog posts that I did

10:35

and this was I think maybe 2019 maybe 2020 um and I believe that it started

10:42

with a couple of the early letters on um one of the letters on marriage maybe um

10:49

so it was like I want to write about this thing I'm hearing I'm hearing some things with some you know in

10:56

conversations with friends or younger newly married women I would like to write about this but

11:02

writing a straight piece about it just doesn't it doesn't feel like something I

11:07

can just sit down and write a you know three reasons why you shouldn't think that you're better than your husband or

11:13

what you know it was just something it was I think it was the it was the letter where she's talking about um you know

11:21

teaching the woman to believe that she's genuinely Superior to her husband in some way because of just kind of

11:26

incidentals in their life and I was I wanted to write about that and I

11:32

couldn't see a way to do a straight A straight article so I thought what if we

11:38

were to fictionalize this and and do an imitation screw tape what how would that and then I got really excited about you

11:44

know just the the fun of the writing challenge of of that um that device

11:50

which and then I and then I I wrote probably three or four maybe five or six more blog posts before I ran out of

11:56

stuff to write about and set it aside for a while so mhm did you have to get yourself into a

12:01

specific mindset to inhabit the character of Madame hoax Rod am I pronouncing that correctly I think you

12:08

are I I just finished the audio book so that's how I pronounced it the whole time um yeah I think it was just it was

12:16

just a fun kind of experiment to try to come up with the voice and not to do

12:22

because you know with screw tape it's a pretty it's like a like an Oxford Dawn

12:27

voice that he holds the whole time which is pretty easy for him to hold cuz that's that was his actual role in life

12:32

umh and it was for me it was like okay well how can we make this kind of more a

12:39

feminine like what would it mean for it to be a feminine voice and then kind of what are you shooting for and I I do think there were probably some old old

12:46

books that I had read kind of floating around in the background um I think in college I really enjoyed uh dangerously

12:53

aison which is also which is another letter form book and has a a wicked female voice and it's I the 18th century

13:02

French um you know female villain basically writing letters so that is

13:08

prob I haven't thought much about how much that probably influenced the voice of Madam hoax r that one book and then

13:15

at least in doing the um doing the audio book was a challenge for sure because I

13:20

was like you know how how Disney villainous mahaha do you get with this

13:27

you know how right I I didn't want it it to be difficult to listen to or or

13:32

cartoonish you know so it was it was some it was something to kind of try to strike a balance um it might be too

13:40

cartoony for some people still but I think listening to a lot of a lot of uh Lewis audio of um like Lion witch in the

13:48

wardrobe actresses doing the doing the White Witch probably snuck in there some but yeah well it's clear that you

13:57

had some fun with the character in fact I think I yeah yeah one of the later chapters you actually reference you

14:03

actually do reference the the French Revolution where the demon got its name from yeah maybe there was was that is

14:09

that the I haven't read dangerously as I remember when I was a child the movie came out it was very popular yeah yeah but um is that is the French Revolution

14:15

when that's set I don't remember exactly when that's set honestly I have a I have an image of

Marrying Down & Women’s Perception of Deserving Better

14:22

the movie maybe being kind of that era I just and I don't remember exactly when

14:27

it was written either so that it's not about the revolution at all it's just about these Wicked people at court kind

14:33

of messing with with other people's lives um just for wickedness

14:39

sake yes so you've got you've got another meeting in the background yeah yeah do you hear the

14:45

baby it's completely fine yeah okay well no that I I think that that also lends

14:50

you know it lends authenticity to the voice to know that the the the book is about a

14:57

demon a manager demon essentially writing to a lesser demon about tempting a woman as she moves through her

15:04

sanctification journey and the challenges she faces as a new believer going all the way up to quite late in

15:10

her life and so that you've lived these things definitely helps lend it a realm of authenticity perhaps yeah

15:17

that's right yeah I mean there is a lot a lot of a lot of the letters are about about marriage about young motherhood

15:23

about um being a newer believer so she does get up into her you know middle age

15:29

by the end of the book um but that's that's probably less that's probably just a few letters maybe five or six of

15:36

the letters later on in life so um yeah it's definitely I mean it's about things

15:42

I've dealt with a lot of it is very thinly veiled non-fiction me or friends

15:47

or friends of mine so it's not it's really not um it's not

15:52

fiction well that's the thing that I felt was so striking about the book was that it was it was very deing in a way

15:59

of the inner lives of women and a way that I I think a lot of modern writing

16:05

culture and Christianity doesn't really go to because we exist in this realm of women don't sin and of course we know

16:11

that isn't true but because women are so different from men who is going to talk about that in an authentic in an

16:17

authentic way yeah that's right I mean you have to I guess it has to be a woman who's willing to just Dive Right In

16:24

there and do it um and I did want you know

16:29

I think that's what again that's what drew me to this this kind of device was being able to fictionalize some of those

16:37

Temptations um that were either directly firsthand or at the very most secondhand

16:44

experiences of me or people that I know very well um and fictionalizing them allowed me to I think to do maybe a

16:52

deeper dive on them that I would have been able to do in a straight Pros book

16:57

so did you have to go within and explore some of these things within yourself like what was I really thinking what was

17:03

I really going through in that moment or was it like no I remember that pretty clear clearly that wasn't fun yeah I

17:10

mean I don't know I guess it depends on the letter um and how it was structured or whatever but yeah I think um a lot of

17:19

a lot of the letters really did start with here's something I really want to write about and here's here's a way to

17:25

do that so yeah I thought it was was very brave that was that was really the

17:31

thing that struck me particularly the section about um marrying down about women believing that they could maybe

17:37

I'll let you unpack that that idea because I I started encountering that chapter and I got into that and I said I

17:43

got into the chapter and I was like you know what like that makes so much sense I've seen that so many times I've seen

17:49

it well exactly yeah so take take that apart for people yeah yeah I mean it's it's almost like it's almost like a

17:56

Trope you know in some ways the the kind of schlumpy husband with the the awesome wife and like you know 90 sitcoms but I

18:04

was really thinking more TR you know real experience with young wives that are coming to me and

18:12

you know we having tea or whatever and I'm I'm just picking up this Vibe and then I'm noticing it in my own heart you

18:18

know early on in marriage and I'm seeing it in um I just see yeah I've seen a lot

18:24

and I do think there's just there's this weird kind of trick that Satan

18:29

that Satan gets a handle on women where they really believe being married to an

18:35

average hardworking um guy in the church you

18:40

know like these are Christian men who who go go to work and bring home a

18:46

paycheck and support your entire life like this is our entire lives are made possible by these men and we

18:53

somehow get this message that we've either invent for ourselves or we pick

18:58

up somewhere um that there is something about us that is so

19:04

special that we deserve better than this like we deserve better than an average normal life with an average normal guy

19:12

um and I don't know I don't know if there's some women just more foolish that are kind of more prone to it or if

19:18

there are certain factors I talk about Fame in that chapter because at least at the time I was writing the chapter I was

19:25

connecting those things that there are some women who for whatever reason just they have this

19:32

idea that they could have been famous it's sort of that I could have been a contender thing in another life you know

19:38

I could have been a model or an actress I could have been a whatever and and and

19:45

somehow that that gets planted and there was a there's a book that I read in high school I think of I mean Of Mice and Men

19:51

has this has this exact character um there is a wife in that in that book who

19:58

comes sidling around among these Farm hands and all she talks about is how

20:04

there was this one movie producer guy who told her one time I could have been

20:10

in the pictures so this is like 1930 something you know um I guess it was a

20:16

common Daydream even then I could have been I could have been in the pictures I could have been I could have been famous

20:21

basically I I was um some one person told her this and now she can never un

20:27

she can never stop thinking about it basically she's just she's living her whole life in this sort of fantasy of what she could have been um so I don't

20:35

know if I've ever seen someone's life just totally get wrecked but I've seen women leave men before that were

20:41

perfectly good men and and I have to wonder you know how much of that is this

20:47

sort of fantasy idea that there is a there's some better life out there um

20:52

and how much of that is even connected to the sort of the fame dream but but the the funny thing about living in an

20:58

era of social media is that that illusion of potential Fame is closer it's more sustainable

21:07

than it's ever been I think Madam hrot says it's sustainable energy for the demons um that like the the illusion

21:16

that you could go and make yourself famous like I mean potentially you could I guess if you knew how to work the you

21:23

know with these apps or whatever and you really wanted to pursue that a lot of people probably could um make a career

21:29

or whatever out of that I just think what it means is that the average woman who doesn't who isn't pursuing that

21:35

still has her fingers just so close to this sort of Illusion that she could be

21:40

famous um I just think it's it's more sustainable so I don't know just what

21:46

I've what I've seen at least among women is that there is a weird idea that

21:51

you're you're too special for normal life MH so so the I appreciate and you

21:59

called it right away like I I have seen this and I think part of the reason why I enjoy this book so much is of course I

22:05

know many single men who are recing dating and and and they're trying to figure out well what's going on with

22:11

women today and they observe these behaviors really they oh oh yeah absolutely absolutely that's that's why

22:18

I've recommended to men to read it because when they try to like what is going on and social media of course is a

22:24

big is a big part of that like get women getting a lot of attention through social media they not pretty illusion

Single Men’s Frustration & Social Media’s Impact

22:31

yeah pretty illusionary is that a word um the attention you receive

22:36

online um I think messes with your perception of whether people are

22:42

actually looking at you and caring about you um so I it just it sets you up to

22:49

not be able to live in reality very well yep I was just talking to a friend about this yesterday who had been having a

22:55

long conversation with the man and it didn't work out I like well you know social media online attention is a

23:01

simulacra for an actual emotionally validating relationship with a real world inperson person but it can be very

23:09

easy for both men and women but I think in particular The Temptations of attention uh women are more susceptible

23:15

to them and so with social media profiles but I never would have connected that to a Life vision like oh

23:21

maybe I can be famous like certainly there are female content creators who do leverage their image into a certain of

23:28

fame or success but I never would have connected that to the everyday average woman that she would also struggle with

23:34

that Temptation I mean like if it's in Steinbeck it's not a new phenomenon right yeah that was what yeah that was

23:41

what was kind of surprising to me is like how many women were going to be in the film industry in the 1930s that

23:46

wasn't it wasn't that realistic of a thing to pursue I don't know but right

23:52

maybe um yeah but it's not it's not realistic now either right correct but

23:58

it may appear to be more so realistic because so many people seem to be at least their their their Instagram

24:04

polished life makes them appear as if that they're perhaps famous when behind the scenes it's probably a little less

24:11

polished right yeah and the the the demon actually says this in the letter

24:16

she says you know if your if your patient is pretty then she's she's prep she that is one factor at least that's

24:23

going to prepare her for this this particular Temptation like you you'll have a better end for this if she has

24:29

been told at some point in her life you know that she's attractive like it's just going to set her up for this

24:34

illusion so yeah I don't know no I appreciate you

24:39

writing these things because it's it's important for women to know themselves in this way because I don't know that

24:46

there are a lot of pastors or fathers or mothers that are going to tell women this but if if it's a common thing and

24:54

plus I mean we're just talking about one letter out of the entire book if these are common temptations that women are

25:00

susceptible to they need to know this particularly I like what you said about they will pursue Fame because an average

25:07

life isn't good enough and I've met so many men with good stable jobs and careers are like I can't I can't find

25:13

anyone because you know maybe I'm not six feet tall please tell me where they are because I've got all the single women are in my church um waiting for

25:21

those guys really oh yeah good yeah okay we'll talk yeah right I no really that's

25:27

why I was actually surprised when you were saying this is a you know I'm seeing an inside of marriages I don't know if I'm seeing it so much in the

25:34

single you know in the single World um because my you know my particular

25:39

whatever Church context I see all these ready to go women and we just don't have a lot of single men out here um but but

25:46

yeah I know so many ready to go men that can't find I don't know what's going on it's time to start it's time to start a

25:52

website or something for these people it is I'm ready for matchmaking to come back I'm serious I actually do believe

25:59

that's the future because I don't think I don't think churches know how to handle it I don't think apps are going to handle it I think some brave people

26:05

will step forward and and try to begin doing something like that to begin putting these pieces together but again

26:12

it's going to require men and women both who are willing to just marry whoever you get matched with just go for it just

26:19

line up and get married just just Dive Right In well there is something to that

26:24

like i' I've joked often that you know during our a grandparents era like would be walking down the street one day and

26:29

like they'd sneeze and they'd see each other like oh that's the person I'm going to marry and they'd be married two weeks later right and now it's it's it's

26:37

far more complicated but I think that I don't know is it that there are more Temptations do you think or is it just we're less aware of the existing

26:43

Temptations or maybe fewer societal controls perhaps The Temptations are you

26:48

talking about within which Temptations are you talking about the Temptations to

26:54

well in in the case of of your book The Temptations to women specifically men will always have their own set of

27:00

Temptations but we'll keep it with women specifically yeah yeah I think the the um the options it's just there's and

27:07

this is across the board men and women with with getting married it's just you think that you have options out coming

27:13

out of your ears and you don't like you just don't or or if you do maybe you do

27:18

but eventually you're going to have to pick somebody and just move forward you know and I think it it is just you know

27:25

it's a it's a demonstrable societal problem that we have with

27:31

options so I think that's what we're experiencing so another sections of the

27:36

book you also deal with um uh the woman's relationship to her husband so she's she's found she she's decided that

27:43

she's not marrying down and she or she remains married to him but then there are The Temptations that exist through

27:49

marriage itself maybe we can talk about some of those mhm yeah so um there's

Addressing Past Neglect in Marriage

27:57

there is a chapter there's an early chapter about them right after they get married and just some of the basics of like marriage um just

28:05

being being kind to each other being um courteous so the idea that so much of

28:13

your joy and your your enjoyment of a marriage comes down to just common courtesy like speaking kindly to each

28:19

other um listening to each other greeting each other when you enter a room you know and the the idea that um

28:27

when people and confessing sin to each other there's there's several chapters about confession of sin and how that

28:32

works inside of a marriage and outside um but some of the just the basics um I

28:40

think we tend to think that our problems are more complicated than they really are um and I think there's a there's a

28:49

some kind of a a part in there um where she says the human beings are all namans

28:55

they they think that once their marriage is a bad place or it's not you know a delightful place to be in um they search

29:03

around for more clinical answers than just the basics of confess sin and speak

29:09

kindly to each other um because they think you know a simple wash in the Jordan is is not enough for my problem

29:16

my problem is too big for that too complicated for that and and often they're not it's not you know sometimes

29:22

it's just go back to the basics of um attentiveness and um

29:28

keeping the as Doug Wilson has said about keeping the floor picked up um

29:34

that's an illustration that we have return to many times in our marriage just making sure that the the things you drop on the floor when you sin against

29:41

each other in your marriage that you continue to pick those things up and you're never going to have to you're never going to stop doing that you know

29:47

I don't care how many years you've been married the basics are still going to serve you um so yeah and then there's um

29:56

later in the later in in the book there's a whole chapter where she's being tempted the the the patient is

30:02

being tempted to have an emotional affair or she's kind of tiptoeing in um

30:07

to you know being involved in an emotional affair with a guy that she works with I think and the just some of

30:15

the the differences between the way a male brain works and the way a female brain works obviously I don't have a

30:21

male brain I've been told you know um how things work over there but I know

30:27

that with us it's not lust is not going to look the same way so we're we're going to be more interested in um a man being totally

30:35

enamored of us being totally in love all the way down whatever that means you know and that those are the things she

30:43

is basically preoccupying herself with in her sort of fantasy time is thinking

30:48

about this man and what does he think of me and is he really that attracted to me so um I just I think that just started

30:55

with me being me seeing married is actually and fall apart over these kind of little a workplace thing or a um a

31:04

friendship that kind of just went went bad basically went too far and just wondering like how does that happen like

31:09

how do you trick yourself into thinking that you're on safe ground until you're not anymore and how does that work on on

31:16

you know on the ground in real life so kind of a thought experiment about that

31:21

um and then um yeah more marriage chapters I think eventually in the book book she

31:28

gets to this point where gratitude takes over and she realizes her just how how

31:35

absolutely blessed she is in in her marriage and in her life and recognizes

31:41

that applying gratitude to all of life is is the path to happiness basically

31:47

it's the way to be happy um so yeah I agree so I have a ton ton of questions

31:53

for you so so the first one uh that I that I have is for for married couples

31:59

maybe newly married couples or maybe they've been married for a long time that haven't picked up the floor so to

32:05

speak and but they but they understand that there's a need to they've suddenly become aware that okay this might be a

32:11

good way to start to fix things what advice would you give to couples in that position how do you start that process

32:16

of picking up the floor when maybe you've left the floor unpicked up for longer than you should have let's say

32:22

right yeah I think um and this I know that I know that men are probably prone

32:27

to to this too but I know that women tend to think if he's not doing this if he's not going to take over and and fix

32:33

this situation there's nothing I can do about it and obviously you know it would be great if

32:41

the man always understood what to do and did it in in a marriage you know situation but sometimes the clarity

32:48

comes to you first of like here's what we need to do and it really does only

32:53

take one person to start picking up the four because some something on the floor

32:58

was something you dropped even if most of it is something he dropped you know there's something on the floor that was

33:04

you and you can begin this minute you can begin today tonight to repent and

33:11

then to start just practicing the process of repentance um in that chapter

33:16

about about confessing sin um the demon talks about different

33:22

categories of sin like the big bad life-altering sins like drunkenness or

33:27

you know something big and and then that being kind of different from the everyday the you know the kind of

33:34

constant day in and day out sins against the other person and how we kid ourselves I think that um some sins we

33:42

avoid confessing because they seem too great and some we avoid confessing because they seem too

33:48

small and so that those because they seem too small sins are the day in and

33:54

day out you know you're probably going to need to to confess something or other multiple

34:00

times a day for a while especially if you're new to it just recognize like this is routine it's like getting your

34:07

teeth cleaned you know it's like getting it's like unloading the dishwasher like this is part of everyday life living in

34:14

a home with another person um but also like don't underestimate the power of

34:19

these things because when you when you don't do them this is where hatred begins like these those old couples that

34:26

we all know who hate like can't stand the side of each other who just a steady stream of nitpicking and and obnoxious

34:34

you know just rudeness to each other that they started by not picking up the floor like that is how those things

34:41

start and it is like it's true hatred that can grow out of those little stupid

34:48

things that got dropped on the floor so yeah you have to nip that in the bud so

Women Leading in Repentance & Male Leadership Myths

34:54

another another question I had for you is um oh by the way I did want to say I appreciate you saying that the woman can

35:00

actually lead in that because there's a debate that happens amongst men that uh

35:05

that has well the man should lead in that and I I usually say well and I agree with you that if you as a woman

35:11

listening feel called to repent for something you don't actually have to wait for your husband to lead in in that if you have that Moment of clarity you

35:17

can actually lead in that it is it is okay yeah that is that is something to

35:24

that is something to be clear on for a woman like she needs to know where she stand in that because um you know I

35:30

think it's a very important conversation for men to be having about leadership in the home and you know all of those things obviously but a woman is a

35:38

Christian you know a woman is a Christian person who stands before God and answers alone on the on the final

35:44

day of judgment she will stand there before the Lord and answer for her sin and he's he's not going to be able to do

35:51

that for her um so there are some women out there who don't need to be told that

35:56

I think a lot of women and do need to be told that like um you're a grown up

36:01

you're a grown girl you know you can you can you can um you can make some amazing things

36:09

happen in your home by doing by doing what's right U by being obedient and and

36:15

just behaving christianly towards your husband there's also a debate that

36:21

happens online that some men seem to believe the idea that um if men were better leaders women wouldn't sin and

36:28

that idea seems to be and I think there's nothing that could be more sexist than that than that idea but I

36:33

fight with men over this that's why I like this book so much because like there's nothing in this book this this

36:39

book is written by a woman a woman there's nothing in this book or almost nothing really about the way the husband

36:45

is going wrong there's nothing that he's doing this wrong there's maybe a little bit of suggestion here and there but in general it's all her own inner and outer

36:52

life with her relationships The Temptations and the sins that that a woman is prone to a as a woman that have

36:59

nothing to do with her husband and I I found that to be such a a beautiful I guess teaching tool completely

37:05

independent of what her husband is doing yeah yeah I mean I don't have to go far out of my own door to know that a man

37:11

can be doing everything right and a woman can still sin you know can still even choose to be unhappy um because I

37:18

I'm married to actually a very Godly Man and that does not guarantee you know my

37:24

my deciding I'm going to have a great day today you you know it just doesn't so it's still it's still my

37:31

responsibility and yes definitely women should know that but also I think it's very and this is a weird word to use in

37:39

our circles but I think it's it's very empowering to women in the right way to recognize that your husband's sin does

37:46

not tie your hands behind your back in in life I mean it can definitely affect your life so much and and I I understand

37:53

that you know I've known women who were married to very difficult men um but that does not that does not have to stop

38:03

you in your tracks and it does not have to take away your witness um and it does not have to take away your joy um some

38:11

of the the women who have been the most encouraging to me in the Lord were some of these women who were and this is

38:16

actually mentioned in the book like make sure the patient doesn't spend any time with that Mary who's over on the sits on

38:24

the left side of the church and her husband's kind of obnoxious and she lives in an apartment and yet she's just

38:30

glad to be alive and she's faithful where she is and she is saying so much

38:36

about the gospel um because you can't look at her life and say well of course she's there's no incidental things about

38:43

her life that make you look at her and say oh obviously she's happy she look how rich her husband is you know or or

38:48

look how look how great her life is obviously she's got joy so there is something there is something huge in

38:56

that woman who's faithful and who's still taking responsibility for her spiritual um her spiritual life even in

39:05

a difficult situation so and that's one of the things I remember you got into in

39:10

the middle of the book about faithfulness isn't dependent on circumstance like oh of course they have good family worship they have this

39:16

lovely living room that's right of of course they host they have a giant house right yeah stuff like that and to not

39:22

tie I'll to not tie your faithfulness to your set of circumstances mhm

Women Understanding Themselves & Faithfulness

39:28

yeah um I think that chapter opens with just the the idea of like women women

39:33

are such that we're very physical creatures I guess we're all about you know the spaces that we're in well

39:40

obviously our our bodies are these sort of environments of of growth and

39:46

stewardship and then our homes are the same way where we we grow and birth and

39:51

and produce in these spaces and um so we react to like Instagram photos of of a

39:58

beautiful home almost with like a kind of lust you know like just the the or at least just our brains are wired to

40:06

really just respond to images of like perfectly appointed spaces or um or

40:12

bodies fashion you know so we we we care about the environment and so and that's

40:19

good there are many good things about that because it's it's in many ways that's you know our calling has to do

40:24

with these spaces and these these things these dishes these you know the food that we're making all these physical

40:30

things but I think that means that we can be especially prone to

40:37

confusing um obedience and productivity with the beauty of the space or the

40:45

stuff that you could own or have um to say that like I can't really be faithful

40:51

if I'm not in a space that's like that you know so just that

40:57

these can these things can kind of trip us up we can confuse the two things as you were sitting down with

41:04

friends perhaps to um to talk about some of the issues in the book or talk about

41:09

some of the ideas what was that like I imagine that it could be uh very challenging perhaps very rewarding

41:15

perhaps very sanctifying because I these sounds like topics that women would need to talk about amongst themselves but

41:21

might be kind of difficult to bring up yeah I don't remember any really difficult I I think a lot of it was kind

41:28

of os osmosis some of the things um like I don't remember sitting down talking with anyone specifically about any of

41:35

the chapters except for the sex chapter that was actually the one

41:41

chapter that I was like let me interview somebody about this um but I think other

41:47

than that it was just kind of the the organic conversations that you have over years um and hearing how people you know

41:56

process things um yeah so I can hear all of my

42:02

listeners right now wondering what did you talk about with that person in the sex chapter the SE chapter I just I just

42:07

wanted yeah I wanted to I wanted to know like does this is this encouraging or is

42:13

this discouraging to you like the this the whole point of writing because I think I had mentioned in an early

42:20

chapter I had mentioned um when they were Newly Weds like the demon I wanted to I wanted to establish early in the

42:27

book that the demons hate physicality of all kinds so that she hates she hates that the patient is gardening she hates

42:33

that the when the patient gets pregnant she hates the fact that the patient is pregnant making more of these Vermin you

42:39

know um and she hates the the sexual act between the husband and wife it was

42:44

obviously very important to me to make it clear like the demons don't like this this is not this is not a point on their

42:51

team you know for a husband and wife to be sexually active together so um I do

42:57

think that's a message I wanted to get across to women but I I didn't have a whole chapter about it until later on I

43:03

think the editors pointed out that I had sort of planted a little um teaser for a

43:08

chapter and then never wrote that chapter so it was the last chapter that I wrote was the was adding in the that

43:14

chapter but um the whole point of it I think is just I guess just to let to let

43:20

women know like this is a big deal and this is something that you you can be faithful in and and it's something that

43:26

you can be um that you can kind of under underemphasize as a as a duty and a joy

43:33

and one of the ways that you bless your husband so um that's something I think

43:38

women women should be encouraging each other in person about like this is something we this is part of this is a

43:45

big part of life so that was a that theme running through

43:50

the book is is one that I thought you understood men pretty well actually in the in the chapter about Affair you said

43:57

any man who would say something like oh we shouldn't you know that is that is

Tilly on Understanding Men’s Needs in Marriage

44:03

yeah right that's right that's right that's not that's not the right kind of guy but then you talked you talked about how men need physical touch and you

44:10

can't just look at men as some sort of Sex Fiend that in some there there is in a way that every man has that need and

44:16

that is that is very true and then the the communication of of giving like the mutual exchange between between the

44:22

couple like all of these things I felt were very uh accurate portrayals of the of the male side without him without the

44:29

name of the husband even being a present so much in the narrative like he very much was there and it was very authentic

44:35

like I could read it and say yes I can see myself reflected in that great that's great great to

44:41

hear so as you were as you were writing the book um as you were getting further so obviously there are sections of it

44:49

that uh represent parts of life that you've lived so as you get further into the book you're sort of maybe looking a

44:54

little bit down the road how did you explore some some of those topics I I don't want to spoil the book I know I

45:00

I've already been really bad to do that um but I did I just remembered that is another interview that I did was

45:07

actually about those final two chapters to do with a dear a dear family friend

45:13

and their um just family scenes toward the end of her life um so I was I was

45:20

interviewing to get some of that um just the detail I

45:25

guess yeah I did have to kind of guess about some things but um towards the end

45:31

I think it's like talking about aging one of those chapters I didn't have to guess about that cuz I'm I'm feeling

45:36

that I'm in my mid-30s or whatever but I'm just I'm starting to feel the the march of time and realizing what it's

45:44

I'm getting the the first feelings of like okay this is what it feels like when you you realize your role in life

45:51

is going to change like you you've identified yourself as maybe this young mom or this young professional before

45:58

you were a young mom and then it's going to change again but also as you age and you start to realize U people see you

46:05

now as as just a mom or they see you as just a grandmother and that's that's something that kind of happens to women

46:12

and um what are you going to do with that like are you going to fight that tooth and nail and say no I'm not a

46:19

grandmother what do you mean you know I'm not a grandmother I'm a young beautiful woman still you know and just

46:25

how how hard are you going to clamp down on what you used to be or who you used

46:33

to be and and um what are you willing to do the things that some women are

46:38

willing to do to try to turn back the clock and um and then just how how

46:44

lovely and how Victorious it can be to instead embrace the Aging that is

46:52

reminding you that you're dying the thing that it's doing is letting you know that that your time is short and

47:00

that death is real and that what you're living in is

47:05

an adventure that is going to end and so what are you going to do with that time so just to me like aging is a way of

47:13

making it super real to you that your body's dying and that you need the new heavens

47:22

and the new Earth to be real because it's the only hope that you have um and so you know that's that's

47:29

what we're doing I guess as as women if we're going to age gracefully what we're doing is um is our our fingers are being

47:37

kind of loosened off of life itself so I know that the second there's a

47:44

sequel to the Pilgrim's Progress that's about Christian's wife and and I haven't and I haven't read it but from having

47:50

read uh my dear Hemlock it felt very much like like sort of like that that in

47:56

its own way like here's a woman walking the road of life and here are all these detours that she can end up taking into

48:02

things that are unrighteous or unwise and here's what the path of Faith faithfulness looks like that continues

48:08

to ask of her expansion is like sacrificing herself expanding her self-concept to include things that she

48:15

never would have otherwise considered right up right up until um the later chapters and I I just thought that was

48:21

such a beautiful a beautiful way of portraying the faithful life of a woman that I I had can't think of a similar

48:28

book that that communicates a message like that yeah I mean I I do think it's part

48:36

of part of writing something like this is just hanging on to the hope that eventually you're going to grow into

48:41

those Seasons yourself you know that like you may have started as a very and this character this character begins as

48:47

a a pretty um immature Petty uh shallow

48:53

person and you just you get to see the fact that the Lord really does change

48:59

those things about a person when they when they enter into his his flock like they're actually going to be a different

49:06

person by the time they die um and I you know I cling to that hope because there

49:11

you know there are a lot of things that about this character that are me as a young person so um the idea that you

49:18

might eventually reach mature middle age and old age and you know be wise is is

49:26

something to really it's very encouraging to me and hope you know fills me with hope so so it had a

49:33

transform writing you writing it had a transformative impact on you a little bit as well I think it did yeah I think

49:39

it did because it does it it sets you sets your sights for like what is my goal here what what's best case scenario

49:45

in my life you know have you heard the same from other women who have read it or maybe during

49:52

the editing process or maybe now that it's been released yeah I guess I've heard just I've had a I've had a lot of

49:58

friends who read it really really quickly for one thing which was surprising to me

50:03

um and just who just talk about the conviction I think mostly you know just being convicted um and then being

50:11

emotional at the end so that's sweet too I imagine everyone gets convicted about a different I was convicted of many

Writing Process & Transformative Impact of *My Dear Hemlock

50:17

things even though it's you know it's I think it's a it's a mutually convicting experience because there are men's versions of these same of these same

50:23

Temptations right yeah yeah and some people have said I've definitely heard

50:28

some people online saying like what what do you mean why do we need a woman's we don't need a woman's screw tape and

50:34

obviously we don't need a woman's screw tape yeah I know but it's just the idea of like I'm a woman I'm a woman and I

50:40

love the screw tape letters I don't need a sheet a she screw tape you know which I totally get um but obviously I

50:47

wouldn't have written this book if I didn't love the screw tape letters and clean and glean so much from the screw

50:52

tape letters for so many years um and I think it was just just this was a great

50:58

device that I was happy to to borrow from Lewis for a little while um to

51:03

write about things that I really thought were relevant to to us today so have you

51:09

gotten any negative push back on the book has anyone has anyone been outraged by it perhaps not yet yeah not yet not

51:17

yet it hasn't been out for very long yeah right yeah so another book of yours

51:24

that I wanted to ask you about um I wanted to ask you about breaking bread because I discovered that book after and

51:31

it seems to be with especially with RFK Jr being nominated to head up the FDA that there is going to be a really big

51:37

conversation coming about food in America in general so I wonder I haven't had a chance to read the book so I don't

51:43

know a whole ton about it but it's it's a it's such a touchy topic 360 degrees

51:48

so I wonder if we can get into that book just a little bit yeah sure um yeah it's

51:53

been a little while but that book came out in 2020 so it was an awkward time to

51:59

have a book come out um because no one was thinking about food really at that time everyone was thinking about dying

52:04

of Co but right um but the book was I

52:10

think it was a response to something I was just just seeing in the church and just a a preoccupation with food and

52:18

diet culture um and I was having I was seeing a lot of people who were suddenly

52:24

like allergic to there's there a lot of gluten allergy that would kind of come and someone would be allergic to gluten

52:30

and then they would be not allergic to gluten after a while and I just I felt like everybody was kind of just looking

52:38

for looking for something and it and it felt like it felt like we were just the

52:45

church was kind of acting like the world but on a on a short delay which is what we do a lot of the time but I was just

52:52

thinking I feel like this has too much power in the church um it's it's strange

52:57

to me that there would be a lot of Christians who are not eating whole food groups for a long periods of time to the

53:02

degree that like you have someone over and they can't eat what you're serving them um it felt like it was it was

53:11

weighing too much I guess in the church so I think that's why I started thinking about the topic and writing about the

53:16

topic but basically the structure of the book is like four food poles or like

53:22

four extremes so asceticism like fear of fear of pleasure and food

53:28

the idea that like um like the Seventh Day Adventist May

53:34

position of like there are so many things that are bad for you really if it tastes good it's probably dangerous for

53:40

you to be eating um and then the so just kind of a a love of rules as a way of

53:45

kind of controlling your life I guess and and then on the other side from that

53:51

just gluttony like which almost like law gospel kind of swinging from you go on a

53:57

diet when which I dieted when I was like 13 or 14 years old for the first time so I was a real young Dieter LED which led

54:04

later on into a major just binging food problem and a and a eating disorder so

54:10

yeah so I I I know very well that sort of dance back and forth between try to

54:16

try to come up with more rules that are going to get my flesh under control and then the swing out of that into just

54:23

total you know debauchery basically that that often happens when you try to use

54:28

the law to get your flesh under control so and then um the other two poles were

54:34

snobbery and apathy so these are more like cult like using food as culture

54:39

markers like I'm the I found this ingredient that no one else knows about and I'm going to make you feel foolish

54:45

that you haven't heard about this yet or I only eat you know expensive food or whatever um and then like on the other

54:54

the pendulum swing away from that like okay I'm not going to be snobby about food so I'm going to pretend that all

54:59

food is basically created equal like eating at McDonald's every day of the

55:05

week is no better than making you know delicious food at home um so yeah so

55:12

those were sort of the four polls that I was dealing with early on in the book and um I do think that I probably it's

55:21

it's possible I would write that book a little differently now than I did in 2019 um I do think that part of what I was

55:29

kind of assuming in writing the book was that if someone is thinking about their

55:35

health all the time it's because they're they just love thinking about their health and they have a they have like an

55:40

imbalance and a problem thinking about it and talking about it all the time and I think having some personal health

55:45

issues since then has has helped me at least understand that sometimes people talk about it because there's a problem

55:52

that they're trying to solve and it's a burden to them because there's an actual

55:58

issue that they're trying to deal with you know and they can still I think it can still become an idol it can still

56:05

become an obsession to talk about these things but I think I just have a a bigger probably space in my mind now

56:12

for why you might um want to talk about these things so anyway so it was sort of

Tilly’s Other Work: *Breaking Bread* & Church Food Culture

56:20

at the time you wrote the book it was responding to what you saw as some unhealthy Trends in the Christian

56:25

Community all these different all these four different ways which I absolutely agree with I I I did look at the table of contents on on Amazon and that was

56:33

when I oh this is this is for real this is not a you know this is not trying to dive diet book yeah no and and nor was

56:40

it um but well even in the secular world the secular World deals with these issues as well like you can go go to any

56:47

major city and you sit down with you know make a liberal friend and sit down to dinner with them and say oh I need

56:53

that to be gluten-free free range bespoke you know suain right where you you deal with that but

56:58

then you also deal with people who don't care at all I I look the table of contents again it's not usual for me to

57:03

have not read a book I'm someone I'm asking someone about but um it seemed to me to be a very balanced perspective to

57:09

give tools to think about it rather than just advocating for a hard position like there are ditches on all four on all

57:16

four sides of the road I suppose that's right yeah and I and then I think a lot of the rest of the book was just

57:22

developing sort of what had been so helpful to me because obviously I've been in every one of the stitches you know I've spent time in all in all four

57:28

of those stitches and in the end I mean after having this eating disorder that

57:34

just chewed me up and spit me out metaphorically um I the thing that was helpful to me was the thing that was

57:41

with was actually healing was um cooking was learning to cook for my family so

57:48

learning to cook first for my husband and then and then for kids and just learning kind of the Delights the

57:53

Delight that that food can be and that it can be a tool to serve and it's a

58:00

it's a tool to unite people in the church and the only time the only thing I feel really strongly about is people

58:06

using it to divide in the church instead of using it as a tool for you know free Unity which is exactly what what the

58:13

Epistles that seems to be you know Paul's burden too is just I don't really care whether you eat the food that came

58:20

from the marketplace or you know I don't really care about I care like how are you treating your brothers and sisters

58:26

um and the same thing with like I think there's a chapter about alcohol in there you know is this going to be a thing

58:32

that you use to love your your brothers and sisters or is it going to be something you use to be obnoxious you

58:38

know so I think that was that was the main thrust of that book and I I

58:44

remember you also plugged those themes into my dear Hemlock where you had uh you talked about was it exstension and

58:50

you talked about maybe we can we can go back to my dear Hemlock and talk about those unique challenges I think the the

58:56

faces a like abstention as one of them and then whine with her friends perhaps we could talk a little bit about those

59:02

yeah that's right yeah so there's a there's a chapter that talks about something that I have thought about

59:07

before called I call it the exstension bias but the idea that I think women

59:13

tend to assume that the burden of proof is on

59:19

um permissiveness so like if you have a friend if you're in a conversation with a friend and they don't say own a

59:27

television or they don't um celebrate Christmas or whatever it is like if they

59:33

if there's something that you do that they don't do on even on legitimate conviction I think that women just tend

59:40

to have a knee-jerk reaction of I think maybe it's more righteous to

59:46

not do the thing than to do it I think maybe it's it's more righteous to obstain from something than to partake

59:52

in it it feels more righteous it sounds more righteous just you know and I just think I don't know I don't know why that

59:59

is I'm not sure where that comes from there's a sort of guess in the book that maybe it's because Eve Eve sin was a sin

1:00:05

of commission instead of you know because she partook um yeah but I just

1:00:11

think that for whatever reason when we hear that someone's not doing something we immediately start checking ourselves

1:00:17

like oh my goodness so I am doing I am doing this thing so I think with food

1:00:23

it's that's just food is just one of the many ways that this shows up but you find out that someone is not eating a

1:00:29

food group it definitely causes you to to wonder do I need should I be looking

1:00:35

into this too you know and maybe you should but I'm just I just I want I want to be aware of the fact that you

1:00:42

shouldn't be assuming necessarily that exstension is holier than than the

1:00:47

opposite so MH um and then with the wine night yeah please oh please the wine

1:00:54

Knight was just the the whole chapter was mostly a social thing I mean there was some commentary I guess on on

1:01:00

drinking behaviors but mostly it was just about spending time with these worldly women and this was actually an

1:01:07

almost direct copy of one letter out of the screw tape letters that I just loved and wanted to use again um but where he

1:01:14

has friends who are worldly and then friends in this sort of church in the you know these Christian friends and

1:01:20

these worldly friends and he bounces back and forth between the two groups and both of the groups make him feel

1:01:26

better about himself because he keeps a foot in both camps when he's with the worldly people they make him feel like

1:01:34

I'm holier than they are so he can kind of hold that little part of himself and

1:01:39

then when he's with the Christian groups he thinks how much more um you know cultured he is because he also has this

1:01:46

other worldly group of people so he he just it's a way it's a pride it's a

1:01:52

pride thing so that's what the mom in this letter the mom is spending time with her old College friends who are

1:01:58

worldly and they make her feel like she's better than they are because she

1:02:04

doesn't do she wouldn't go as far as they would in certain ways she wouldn't say that about her husband or she she

1:02:09

doesn't have that extra glass of wine or whatever but um she's being influenced by them even so so so as you think back

1:02:18

on on on the book and the writing process and now that it's been published do you think that um do you think you

1:02:24

lived up to the standard you set for yourself uh to uh do honor to CS Lewis's

Women’s Unique Challenges & Social Influence

1:02:29

Legacy it's a terrible question to ask anybody oh probably you don't have to answer yeah right I just mean like there

1:02:36

have been times when I was rereading when I was rereading the first the first um draft which was incredibly rough it

1:02:44

was a it was a super rough draft this is my third book the first book Went to

1:02:49

went to press basically in the state that I handed it to the publisher because I had had five years to work on

1:02:55

it and you know edit it basically over time myself the second book was a little

1:03:00

rougher this was by far the roughest manuscript I've ever turned in and I

1:03:05

just had because I just couldn't look at it anymore and it just was such it was all over the place there's so many different topics you know it was just a

1:03:12

it was a weird book to write and the editors the Canon guy who they gave um

1:03:19

he was awesome I mean he was he was so helpful just in forcing me to get more logical throughout the book but i s all

1:03:26

that to say like there have been many times when I picked up this manuscript and I thought this is the worst this is

1:03:31

so bad and no one should ever do this and why did I decide that this would be

1:03:36

a good idea so I don't know if I feel that way now but I have to say it has it's just don't do this sort of thing

1:03:43

don't don't invite people to compare you to CS Lewis it's just a bad idea it's a

1:03:49

recipe for disaster I don't know that I I I don't know that that's it's say apples and

1:03:55

orang right that's right yeah just but I'll tell you I think I think it's a

1:04:00

worthy compliment I think it's a worthy compliment to CS Lewis's work I think it fills in an enormous cultural and

1:04:07

perhaps even I don't want to say theological I don't want to make it sound grander than it is but almost like there's a blind spot that it's being

1:04:13

it's being filled in especially because we live in a post Feminine Mystique era right and The Feminine Mystique is this

1:04:19

kind of cultural value that's not really spoken it's like oh women can't be understood perhaps not even by

1:04:25

themselves I don't to believe that and I think it's a very dangerous idea to suggest to women that they can't be

1:04:30

understood can they understand themselves because the Christian Life demands that demands that they

1:04:36

understand themselves particularly so they know they're sinning or not so I think it was it's a worthy compliment to CS lewis' work that's a very good point

1:04:43

about the just women being told that they can't even understand themselves I don't know if I've ever heard that put

1:04:49

in just that way um but yeah I think that's absolutely right and and as far as it being I mean obviously to imitate

1:04:56

imitation is the sincerest form of flattery I love love love Lewis and

1:05:02

probably I mean every book everything I've ever written has been influenced in some way or other by LS so this is just

1:05:08

more of that can relate so just if you don't mind just just one more quick question if that's okay okay so um

1:05:16

you're a a wife and a mother of multiple children how how do you how and where do

1:05:22

you find the time the focus the energy to to set aside time to to write in a

1:05:28

focused way I'm sure that there are lots of and women who would be wondering about that in particular yeah um I take

1:05:35

walks with a baby and a stroller or whatever but we live in the country I take walks and that's how I plan a piece

1:05:41

of writing that's how I get ideas is walks um and then I and then I'll I'll

1:05:47

get up early mornings and and work on something if I'm in the middle of something um sometime you know and my

1:05:53

husband actually has has given me writing dat days too here and there you know on a he's a pastor so he gets

1:05:59

Mondays off um that's usually our family you know knock around going hike kind of

1:06:04

day but um if I'm on deadline for something he'll some he'll give me some time then um so yeah I mean it's just

1:06:11

different ways you just steal you steal the time here and there you you find the time here and there but

1:06:17

um I don't know there's seasons in life when it's just not time to write and I I

1:06:22

might be in one of those right now I mean we've got a an 18-month-old and and um my other three kids are N9 seven

1:06:29

and five and they're were homeschooling so you know it's it's just it's a it's a

1:06:34

time when my mind is full of just what I'm doing with them and it's plenty enough to keep you know to keep my mind

1:06:41

satisfied so um I don't know I it may I don't know if it's going to be a long

1:06:47

time before something else comes up as another project screw tape letters for

1:06:53

kids yeah oh yeah a co-write with ni7

1:06:58

and5 I'm sure now that will be a project yeah sounds fun actually yeah well thank

Balancing Writing with Motherhood & Responsibilities

1:07:06

you so much for the generosity of your time I know you have a lot going on and thank you for your work and thank you

1:07:11

thank you for this book I I really um was very blessed by it and I hope my listeners will be too great thank you

1:07:18

where would you like to send people to find out more about you and what you do oh goodness I um

1:07:26

I guess Facebook or okay the Canon Canon is has put this book out you could go to

1:07:31

the Canon page I don't I don't I'm not on Instagram anymore and I don't have a website anymore so I just I just got rid

1:07:37

of both those things so I guess Facebook great we send them to Facebook and to Canon okay great thank you so much